New Delhi:
After Finance Minister Arun Jaitley warned that the Congress will be "embarrassed" because a "big name" from the party is on a list of Indians who hold illicit foreign bank accounts, his predecessor and Congress leader P Chidambaram today said, "Whatever name is there will embarrass the individual, the party won't be." In an exclusive interview to NDTV, Mr Chidambaram spoke on a range of issues, from the black money row to coal reforms to the Congress leadership.
Following is the transcript of the interview:NDTV: The electoral victories for BJP in Maharashtra and Haryana and the announcement of a slew of economic reforms has added momentum to the Modi government's performance; it also raised questions about whether the Congress can and is playing the role of an effective Opposition, with many pointing to the party's increasing marginalization. This past week Finance Minister Arun Jaitley directly baited the Congress in an interview to NDTV when he said not just is he going to disclose the names of the black money beneficiaries, but when this list is out in the public domain it will be Congress who will be red-faced, pointing clearly to a big Congress name, perhaps a former UPA minister on that list. Observing all of this is somebody, who is with us in the studio, who hasn't spoken too much, in fact I think not at all after defeat of the UPA in 2014, joining us now is former Finance Minister P Chidambaram.
Thank you for your time, let me start by asking you about what's top of mind in a sense in public domain and that has this been a war of words over black money between the Congress and the BJP? Now Arun Jaitley in an interview said to me the Congress and the media had got his initial statements all wrong. He said he is going to disclose all the names. However he said names will be disclosed to Court, he said he has a basic agreement with Swiss authorities that once independent investigations have been done in India, at least 50 in the first round, there will be co-operation and he said expect big Congress names on this list. As somebody who had to tackle this issue as Finance Minister how do you respond to Mr Jaitley's comments?
P Chidambaram: Well firstly no one got it wrong. The affidavit filed in the Supreme Court clearly was a U-turn on the position that the BJP had taken. When we had told the court that under the bilateral agreements we cannot and should not be asked to disclose the names until charges are filed or prosecution is launched, the BJP criticized us bitterly, severely. In fact I remember a statement by then candidate Mr Narendra Modi on 17th of February where he said the Finance Minister is paying lip service to the cause and that when he comes to power they will disclose the names and they will bring back the black money in 100 days. So nobody got the BJP wrong. The BJP does not have the grace to admit that they did a U-turn, but that's for the people to judge.
NDTV: But Arun Jaitley is saying he will disclose the names so how is it a U-turn?
P Chidambaram: It's no change in the position of the UPA, we also said, please read our affidavit, we said we will disclose the names once prosecution is filed or once charges are framed, that's the position they criticized and now they are adopting the same position. Apart from it being a right position in law, they should not have criticized the position that we had taken.
NDTV: So you are supporting the position they have taken saying they have no choice but to take this position?
P Chidambaram: I'm not supporting the position, I'm only saying it is the only right position that you can take if you don't want to jeopardize your bilateral treaties. But whether the Supreme Court will accept it we don't know. They didn't accept it when we said it, we'll see whether they'll accept it when the BJP government says it.
NDTV: Two things, one Arun Jaitley says all of you have got it wrong because we are going to disclose the names to Court shortly. In the several years that the names were with you, you did not disclose them to Court. You did not disclose any names?
P Chidambaram: Wrong again, we disclosed 18 names to the Supreme Court and Supreme Court asked us to give those names to Mr Jethamalani and those names were given to Mr Jethamalani. Those were the only cases where prosecution or charges have been launched.
NDTV: You are saying the BJP position today is identical to the position you took when you were in government?
P Chidambaram: Yes.
NDTV: But there is one difference and that difference is that the Finance Ministry today, and the Finance Minister is saying we had some progress with the Swiss authorities, you would remember that you wrote to the authorities as well saying...
P Chidambaram: Who started that process, I started the process.
NDTV: But you didn't get progress.
P Chidambaram: No, no we did, we pushed them to a point, we pushed them to a point after several very strong letters, that if you don't disclose it, if you don't share the information we are going to raise it in the G-20. I raised it in the G-20, the G-20 Final Declaration had a paragraph on sharing information and it was specifically directed towards Switzerland and similar tax havens. In fact the Swiss who usually attend the Summit by invitation, conveniently absented themselves in the last meeting, be that as it may. So we pushed them to a point where they finally said alright, we will either disclose the names where you've had independent evidence gathered or we will tell you the reasons why we cannot disclose the names. Now the agreement that they've entered into ten days ago, when the Revenue Secretary visited Switzerland, is exactly that, please read it again, its been published, that we will disclose the names if there is independent evidence gathered by India or we will tell you the reasons why we cannot disclose the names. That's the same position where I left the government.
NDTV: You are saying you had a similar agreement with Swiss authorities?
P Chidambaram: We had pushed them to a point where they agreed to enter into this kind of statement, after that there was of course an election.
NDTV: But if that agreement existed why would the new government need another agreement, clearly there were gaps.
P Chidambaram: There is nothing new, that's precisely the point I'm making.
NDTV: So you're saying that you question the fact that there has been greater movement on the question of black money issue under the BJP? There's been an SIT formed.
P Chidambaram: SIT formed, yes.
NDTV: SIT formed, done almost within the first few days of government being formed. Hasn't the government shown more responsiveness, more alacrity on the issue than your government?
P Chidambaram: I don't think so, the order on forming SIT I think, if I remember it right, was passed by the Court on the 1st of May and I had said to my officers that this decision must be left to the next government after the election. It would not be proper to take this decision when we are in the middle of an election, so whoever forms the government after the May 16 election will have to take a decision on the Supreme Court order. So it so happened that the BJP came to office and they formed the SIT.
NDTV: But the formal agreement between the Revenue Secretary and Swiss authorities announced, as you said 10 days ago in Berne, would you say that you managed to obtain a similar agreement in writing, officially?
P Chidambaram: That's what I'm trying to say, the formal writing is not there.
NDTV: So you had a de facto understanding but they have a formal agreement?
P Chidambaram: We pushed to a point where they agreed yes we will enter into such an agreement.
NDTV: But not officially, not something that you could announce to public.
P Chidambaram: I could not because there was an election, there was a change of government, those 2-3 months there was no delegation visiting Switzerland.
NDTV: So you had a private understanding that you could not reveal to the public.
P Chidambaram: A private understanding but our negotiations and the pressure that we built through G-20 brought the Swiss to a point where they said yes this is the understanding we will reach, and we will enter into an agreement.
NDTV: Would you grant in terms of perception that this government has been able to make announcement, there is a perception that they've done more?
P Chidambaram: That's the advantage of every succeeding government. Who built the Jammu-Katra rail link? Modi inaugurates it. He announces that he's inaugurated the railway line, who remembers when it was built? Or you have say Chandrayaan or Mangalyaan, the satellite or the rocket was not built after May 26, that's the advantage of every successor government.
NDTV: Arun Jaitley's perhaps most controversial comment in that interview to me was that Congress is going to be deeply embarrassed when these names are made public. He has indicated that a very senior Congress leader, not denying that it could a former UPA Minister, is on that list. You've had a chance to see names on that list, can you confirm or deny what Mr Jaitley is saying?
P Chidambaram: Let me make it clear, I did not ask to see nor was I shown the names.
NDTV: You have not seen the names?
P Chidambaram: I did not ask to see nor was I shown the names so what name is there I don't know. But if there is a name of a former minister it will embarrass that person.
NDTV: Not the party, not the government?
P Chidambaram: He is not keeping that account for the party; the party did not authorize him to keep that account. These are individual transgressions, individual violations of the law, the individual should be embarrassed, why should the party be embarrassed?
NDTV: Would you concede that if Arun Jaitley is making this comment, obviously doing it with a sense of information, with responsibility, its not a trivial comment, its not a comment that the Congress could take lightly?
P Chidambaram: I don't expect Mr Arun Jaitley to make a trivial comment. He's the Finance Minister of India. He's not likely to make a trivial comment, but I think the purpose of that comment was to move from black money to what a friend of mine said, blackmail.
NDTV: But if its true its not blackmail.
P Chidambaram: Release it, why say it? Why this promotion? To use your language promote, just release the name.
NDTV: The names will come out in due process.
P Chidambaram: Let it.
NDTV: In due time and given that you have no less than the Finance Minister saying that its no less than a senior Congress leader who's going to be there on that list, how can you separate that leader from the party and the government, your government?
P Chidambaram: This is completely wrong. We have Mr Yeddyurappa, accused, in jail for sometime and now facing criminal trial, does the party assume responsibility for any transgression that he may have done when he was in office? No party authorizes illegal acts; no party authorizes transgressions of law. When an individual has violated the law it is the individual who bears the responsibility, it is the individual who will be embarrassed.
NDTV: However as you've seen the recent results in Haryana and Maharashtra and even in the defeat of the Congress in the Lok Sabha elections, there's been a perception of corruption associated with Congress. Prithviraj Chavan said as much in an interview to me we could not tackle these allegations, whether they were directed at the NCP, in Haryana that the Hooda government, knowing that it was going to lose, moved very swiftly to clear a very controversial land deal that had been stalled by Ashok Khemka for Robert Vadra. Do you not think that the measures such as what the Hooda government did in Haryana only reinforces the image of corruption tailing Congress leadership?
P Chidambaram: See, any government, which has been in office for 10 years or 15 years is bound to face allegations of corruption. This has been our experience with every party in this country. The DMK, AIADMK, at the end of every term, there was a perception of corruption and the government changed. So I'm not happy that there's this perception of corruption, but I think that's the way perceptions get built up at the end of a term. The mistakes committed by individuals or the excesses committed by individuals do leave a stain on the government as a whole.
NDTV: Do you think what the Hooda government did will only reinforce the impression that the Congress party is here to create sweetheart deals for Robert Vadra? What was the need before the elections, it could have been left to the next government to decide whether land conversion was valid or not?
P Chidambaram: I don't know the facts of the case, all I know is that the Election Commission said that this....
NDTV: They said that this doesn't violate the Code of Conduct.
P Chidambaram: It was done long ago.
NDTV: However that's not the question, the question is does it not reinforce the perception that the Haryana government is there to help Mr Vadra?
P Chidambaram: I don't know the facts, whether they were helping him or whether they were taking a routine decision, I don't know the facts so how can I comment on that?
NDTV: But given that you were Finance Minister at that time this controversy around Mr Vadra erupted when you were in government. So, what do you make of the comments of the BJP government, the Finance Minister arguing there is a prime facie case, that the new government will investigate it? We could well see the new government reversing the decision taken by the Hooda government on this land conversion. Don't you think Congress has only got a self-goal in its handling of the Robert Vadra allegations?
P Chidambaram: See without knowing the facts I don't think it's fair to comment on any transaction. I don't have the papers in front of me, unless I have the facts in front of me I can't comment on any transaction.
NDTV: Then should the party spokespeople be defending Mr Vadra, if you are not going to comment on the allegation?
P Chidambaram: I don't know what the party spokesperson has said. I don't know what he has said.
NDTV: So you are saying you will distance yourself from the issue altogether?
P Chidambaram: I said if I'm obliged to comment, if I'm authorized to comment I will, provided I have before me the facts and the paper.
NDTV: You must have the facts on paper when you were the Finance Minister, it was an issue in the public domain?
P Chidambaram: Finance Minister has no access to these papers, which concern a state government. Did I have papers of Yeddyurappa's case? No.
NDTV: So the Finance Ministry had nothing to do with Vadra?
P Chidambaram: It never came to the Finance Ministry formally because there was no occasion for it to come to Finance Ministry.
NDTV: But you have an understanding of finance...
P Chidambaram: I hope so.
NDTV: Therefore the information that existed in the public domain, do you believe this is a legitimate deal?
P Chidambaram: That's the privilege of journalist, to take bits of information and come to a conclusion. I'm a trained lawyer. I do not take bits of information and come to a conclusion. I would like to have all facts before me.
NDTV: Would you grant that this issue of Vadra created a perception problem for the party?
P Chidambaram: May be, it did. I don't know.
NDTV: And did the party handle it effectively?
P Chidambaram: I don't know, may be it did, but these are questions, which must be answered by people who were there in the field in Haryana, people who were contesting elections, I don't know.
NDTV: Let's step back and look at what government is saying about its bunch of economic reforms. I want to start with coal, government has stopped short of de-nationalization, but it has created an enabling clause in ordinance, that at a future date, the time of which is not specified, private companies could enter this sector. Do you believe to that extent the Minister has been able to go further in the coal sector than the Congress was able to?
P Chidambaram: Not much further and I'll tell you why and leaves a lot to be desired, I'll tell you why. We have already amended the Coal Nationalization Act and we have passed a corresponding amendment in the Mines and Minerals Development & Regulation Act, what is known as the MMDR Act, where we have already allowed persons other than Coal India, private parties to mine if they are mining for captive consumption, end use cement, power, steel and coal washery, that far and made a dent into coal nationalization, it's the judgment of the Supreme Court whether it was right or wrong.
NDTV: Do you think whether it was right or wrong?
P Chidambaram: Well it's largely right but I think there are several areas, which have thrown up new problems, that's a separate issue. The judgment of the Supreme Court gave us an opportunity to go much further and clean up the whole sector without compromising the role of Coal India. See Coal India has X no. of mines, let me assume that it has a capacity to grow at say 5% a year or 7% a year and it will therefore have the capacity to mine so much more over a period of next ten years. You reserve all the mines that Coal India has and will need, all other mines should have been opened up, this is a great chance and I think they missed that chance.
NDTV: Why couldn't you do it?
P Chidambaram: We didn't do it because we were a coalition, there was no consensus and within the government and among our allies there was clearly a feeling that nationalization and monopoly of Coal India should continue. There were some of us who believed that while Coal India should be a lead player, there should be other players like for example you have BSNL, MTNL, you have other players in telecom sector, you have ONGC you have other players in oil and gas sector, you have Steel Authority of India you have others in steel sector.
NDTV: But that is what the future privatization will enable?
P Chidambaram: That has already been done by introducing Section 3 in the Coal Mine Nationalization Act and Section 11 in the MMDR Act. You should go further.
NDTV: Now it's interesting that you refer to coalition in a sort of hampering in a sense how freely....
P Chidambaram: Well hampering is a wrong word....
NDTV: How freely you can move on reforms...
P Chidambaram: ...unless the coalition, any coalition can work on a programme that everyone agrees, it's not only what the lead party agrees.
NDTV: My question was that do you believe that Arun Jaitley has a political advantage that you did not have? The advantage is (a) government has a clear mandate, (b) he has the backing of the Prime Minister and (c) he does not have a National Advisory Council to stall economic reforms.
P Chidambaram: I don't think National Advisory Council has anything to do with coal reform.
NDTV: In general, reforms in general.
P Chidambaram: Given all these advantages, I'm right when I say I'm disappointed you didn't go the whole hog.
NDTV: But talk a little bit about your disappointment vis a vis your tenure, when you look at these reforms, in many ways the reforms are self-evident what a new government needs to do, I'm sure you had all the same ideas, let's take diesel de-regulation.
P Chidambaram: Are you saying we didn't do reform?
NDTV: I'm saying that you as Finance Minister....
P Chidambaram: Who did the diesel reform?
NDTV: You increased the price of diesel; you did not leave it like an unregulated sector like petrol.
P Chidambaram: Wait a minute, listen to me, we said that there is no consensus on diesel reform, there is no consensus that diesel should be de-regulated like petrol but we took the bold and now Mr Jaitley admits wise, your channel, wise decision, it was a bold decision to increase it by 50 paise every month because we started that, they reached a point where they could cross the finishing line. It so happened that finishing line became shorter thanks to the decrease in crude prices, but this diesel reform is entirely the UPA government's reform. Aadhar was a UPA government reform, biometric identity for the beneficiary, de-duplication using Aadhar is a UPA reform.
NDTV: It's the lack of consensus you speak about.
P Chidambaram: The people didn't give us 282 seats.
NDTV: You also didn't have a strong Prime Minister. Because of the dual nature of power sharing you didn't have a Prime Minister who could say I will back my Finance Minister.
P Chidambaram: The Prime Minister fully backed me.
NDTV: But he didn't have the political authority that Narendra Modi has.
P Chidambaram: See on decisions where there was a consensus and when I proposed a decision there was a broad consensus, Prime Minister and the Congress President fully backed me, there were some issues there was no consensus.
NDTV: Like diesel de-regulation.
P Chidambaram: No diesel was de-regulated in our time, we didn't do the last step namely make it market-priced. Even now Mr Jaitley is unwilling to say that he has gone to fully de-regulate the market, I heard the interview, he is not willing to say that, all he says is well we have....
NDTV: He says oil companies have some space to absorb it.
P Chidambaram: But he's not saying diesel equals petrol.
NDTV: He said diesel equals petrol.
P Chidambaram: I didn't hear him say that but if he implied it I welcome it, diesel must now equal petrol.
NDTV: Now here's the thing, you are welcoming it. You are saying that Mr Jaitley is showing the wisdom that in a sense was first unveiled...
P Chidambaram: Because he conceded our wisdom.
NDTV: However your party colleagues are not willing to accept it. You have a Digvijaya Singh saying that this is going to hurt the probe. So you must have had to deal with these kinds of voices in your tenure. What's the harm at admitting it? Everybody knew.
P Chidambaram: But why should I hesitate to say that, in a coalition and where we do not have a simple majority there will be different voices. The art of politics, the art of political management is to manage those voices.
NDTV: Many of those saying were not allies they were within the Congress.
P Chidambaram: Within the Congress but then Congress is a large party. Congress is a coalition of interests, so is the BJP. I heard a BJP leader say the BJP itself is the rainbow coalition.
NDTV: You don't feel that there was an economic contradiction inherent in your Government, which was that in Sonia Gandhi's case Advisory Council had a very left of center philosophy and your economics was more right of center, was more oriented towards the market, I mean we know that the NAC had an influence over your economy.
P Chidambaram: NAC had a very significant role to play on many issues, which are of great relevance to this country. Take for example MNREGA. Now I seriously question and I strongly criticize that this issue of the government that they will consign it to 200 backward districts, I'll tell you why. MNREGA was not a programme to eliminate backwardness. MNREGA was a programme to eliminate hunger. There are hungry people in backward districts. There are people who will go hungry in the so-called non-backward districts. Now you are missing the central purpose of MNREGA, if NAC had a say in devising MNREGA, if NAC had a say in devising RTI. I welcome that. I think that is a useful input in a country where still 30-32 per cent, say even 40 per cent of the people are poor, the bias must be in favour of poor. Bias must be in favor of poor, programmes with the objective of eliminating poverty. So I think to that extent NAC played a useful role. But that didn't come in the way by my doing market reform. My doing reform in the capital market.
NDTV: So what came in the way?
P Chidambaram: What came in the way was we did not have a majority. We had an obstructionist BJP, which won't pass the insurance bill.
NDTV: You have also had obstructionist party colleagues.
P Chidambaram: Listen, why are you trying to paper over the fact that the BJP was obstructionist. Why would you not ask Mr Jaitley? I'll ask him when I see him. But I have asked him in fact, why did you not pass the insurance bill? Tell me. Have they got one good reason? I remember in Sushma Swaraj's room, where Jaitley, Sushmaji, and I think, Yashwant Sinha, were present. He said Chidambaramii, BJP no longer has an appetite to pass legislation. What is appetite to pass legislation? You are elected for 5 years. You don't stop eating in the last year 6 months of your tenure. You should pass legislation when the last 6 months...
NDTV: The Finance Minister also wants to bring significant changes to another legislation passed in your time the Land Acquisition Act. He says that even Congress Chief Minister's find some of its provisions far too obstructionist, to use your word. Do you have any area of agreement with him on this?
P Chidambaram: I don't know what changes he's going to bring. But let me say candidly, that bill was the result of intense debate. There were voices, which pushed for a very radical bill. There were voices, which advised the moderation. They said listen, this will be mean that you will not get any land for any industry. A number of exceptions were cut down. There was a schedule, which has a huge number of exceptions. I would not oppose change in the current Land Acquisition Act simply for the sake of opposement. I would like to see what changes have been proposed. If the changes that have been proposed are changes that will facilitate land acquisition, while at the same time ensuring that the landowner gets fair compensation, I think the Congress party should take an objective view on those amendments.
NDTV: That's interesting. Now talking about the Congress party, there's the sense that the Congress is this rudderless ship right now. That if it's needed for Sonia Gandhi, she's not particularly seen or heard. That if the new leader Rahul Gandhi, he is seen or heard less. Do you share the concern as the senior Congress leader? For example we are hearing from you almost two months after the defeat. Why isn't someone like you, in the public domain, playing the role of Opposition Leader? Where is the Congress? Where is Rahul Gandhi?
P Chidambaram: I have made four statements. And I think your channels may have carried it. Print Media has carried it. Whenever there was an issue concerning the finance ministry or economics I have made statements. It's not like I've been quiet. And I think, this is my personal view, that the government must be given a reasonable amount of time to settle down and announce its policies. And I thought at that point of time, on the 26th of May I said normally they give a government 100 days. But I think we should give them time until Diwali. When was Diwali? That's why I am here before you.
NDTV: But that doesn't answer my question. That answers why you are here now.
P Chidambaram: I would urge the Congress President or the Congress Vice President to speak more. I would urge them to come and address more, rallies or urge them to meet the media. I would urge them to do that.
NDTV: But you know you are urging them to talk to the media, to speak to the public. From what I understand they are not even talking to their party people.
P Chidambaram: That's not right. I see them, not frequently, but I see them at regular intervals. They did talk to me. I assume they are talking to others. But I would urge them to talk to the public.
NDTV: Would you concede that there is a demoralized Congress cadre waiting for direction and that Rahul Gandhi, if he has provided the direction, this is a well-kept secret?
P Chidambaram: Well I agree that the Congress moral is pretty low, but I don't agree that moral cannot be lifted, that direction cannot be given, I don't agree. It's a matter of time, more accurately a matter of timing. I am sure that the Congress leadership has its own timetable. I would urge again that the timetable be shortened and we get on the job if we are organizing the party and getting on with the job of the two oppositions.
NDTV: So you think that they do need to respond with the little more urgency?
P Chidambaram: Well I think so. I think so.
NDTV: But isn't part of the problem the engraved sycophancy in the Congress culture? And the reason I put this before you is you just had 2 defeats as a party in Maharashtra and Haryana, Why is it that somebody like a Prithviraj Chauhan or a Bhupinder Hooda will immediately go on television and say the responsibility is all mine, it is not of the Gandhis. However had these been victories immediately the credit would have gone to the Gandhis. Now this in today's day seems deeply sycophantic.
P Chidambaram: Nobody asks anyone to be a sycophant. Nobody has asked me to be a sycophant. I don't believe, you believe I am a sycophant?
NDTV: But there are many of your colleagues.
P Chidambaram: Nobody is asking anyone to be a sycophant, if somebody thinks...
NDTV: Why aren't the Gandhis discouraging it?
P Chidambaram: I don't know what they tell them in private but I am pretty sure nobody has said anyone should be a sycophant.
NDTV: Would you concede that there is a crisis of leadership, that there are question marks over whether Rahul Gandhi can be the person to lead the party? Already there has been a clamour from within the Congress's...
P Chidambaram: No. No. I don't want to comment on all that. I think the most acceptable leader today, at least of my generation, the most acceptable leader in the party is Mrs Sonia Gandhi and I think among the younger members of the party there is wide acceptance of Mr Rahul Gandhi. That doesn't mean other leaders cannot or should not emerge. This is a large country. This is the country with 26 states. There must be other leaders who would emerge, firstly at the state level and then at the National Level.
NDTV: When you say that Mrs Sonia Gandhi is the most acceptable leader today, what role do you see for her then? Do you see her as a primary leader, as a post or distinct from her son?
P Chidambaram: As long as she is the Congress President I think she is "numero uno".
NDTV: Not Rahul Gandhi?
P Chidambaram: No she is the Congress President, she is number 1.
NDTV: Are you disappointed with the fact that she seems to have ceded space, she seems to have withdrawn a bit in this campaign leaving it to her son? A lot of the older Congress persons have wanted her to be more active.
P Chidambaram: Well this question must be put to her but I think the creation of the post of the Vice President and installing or appointed Shri Rahul Gandhi to that post was a deliberate strategy to hand on the baton to the next generation of leadership at every level, younger people coming at the state level, younger people coming at the district level. I don't think anything was wrong with that. I think the decision in Jaipur was perhaps the correct decision, it was welcomed with great enthusiasm not only by the party but even people outside the party.
NDTV: But why the over-dependence on one family alone to lead you?
P Chidambaram: Well it so happens that he belongs to that family. That doesn't mean that younger leaders cannot emerge. After all Sachin Pilot had emerged.
NDTV: Could a non-Gandhi be the Congress President?
P Chidambaram: I think so, someday, someday yes.
NDTV: So when will we see these internal elections?
P Chidambaram: I don't know. I am too old to aspire for that now.
NDTV: What would urge the leadership to make fundamental changes sooner or later?
P Chidambaram: I have, not only I, others have urged that the re-organization that was promised in the May 19th CWC resolution is overdue, we should get on with the job of the re-organizing the party and get on with the larger task of being a effective, strong, robust opposition to the government.
NDTV: Let me end by asking you how you then objectively and not just that, the Opposition has assessed the performance of the Modi governmen so far? Would you concede that there has been a renewal of the India story globally? That there have been a number of high profile and successful visits by the Prime Minister to the United States of America, he's headed now to Australia, you know his trip to Japan, his meeting with the Xi Jingping, would you concede because the Indians normally, Indian politicians have a degree of consciences from foreign policy?
P Chidambaram: Well that's many questions rolled into one. It can't be answered briefly, but I will try to keep the answer short. You see at the level of articulation and propaganda I think this government has scored quite heavily. If you look at strategy, an over-reaching policy I think that is missing. BJP men have told me that what they miss is an over-all over-reaching policy in areas like defence, areas like foreign policies, specially neighbours India-Pakistan, India-China that is missing, a strategy totally missing. In the last couple of weeks many people have written and spoken about the completely bungled court-on-court strategy of any of dealing with the Pakistan incursions on the LoC.
NDTV: But this is a challenge for every government. I think it was a challenge for you as well.
P Chidambaram: We dealt with the challenge with far greater maturity and sobriety. We can't give short answers to them. But on the level of articulation and propaganda I think this government has scored heavily. I must concede that. Now if you look at the takeaways of these visits, let's be completely objective. His focus, the Prime Minister's focus, he is the best judge of what serves his interest and his party's interest. The Prime Minister's focus has been more on the domestic constituency and I think they have done remarkably well in the domestic constituency. But, if you look at specific takeaways, the bond with Mr Abe did not yield an agreement on civil nuclear liability and co-operation, did not yield an agreement on the Abe's pet project of buying his amphibious planes. The one with Mr Xi, President Xi, resulted in a couple of agreements Gujarat specific. There was no agreement on when the special representatives meet again to talk, there was no agreement on any other project or programme concerning India as a whole and China as a whole. And even as he was sitting on the
jhula there were 1000 Chinese troops in our territory, what we claim to be in our territory, and they didn't leave, although the PMO planted the story that they withdrew. That turned out to be a wrong story. With Mr Obama, President Obama takeaways are even less. There was no agreement on the Civil Nuclear Liabilities Act. There was no agreement on the totalization agreement that we wanted, there was no agreement on US giving us visas, I think if you look at takeaways from these visits they are very few. And the people had begun to notice it. People had begun to comment on it.
NDTV: But they interject to say do you not concede that there is a wider public backing for the approach that this government has taken to Pakistan. Visibly the Manmohan government, which seemed to be much softer, the Modi government has drawn new red lines.
P Chidambaram: This is the problem, you sort of adopt this, what the writer called a machismo approach and that will enthuse a section of Indian people. They always do. That's wrong. Please remember for the first time, for the first time, as far as I know, thanks to the LoC becoming fragile and volatile, 30,000 people in 110 villages had to move away from the villages, who virtually are now refugees or internal immigrants.
NDTV: So what would you have the government do instead of a robust response as determined officers on the ground?
P Chidambaram: Please ask the then Chiefs of Staff of the Army, please ask all the Chiefs that were there. UPA's response was measure for measure.
NDTV: But when the BJP does that you are saying that was Machismo?
P Chidambaram: No, UPA's. BJP says it's not measure for measure, in fact to quote his words he said, "we have shut their mouth", have they? Well there was firing yesterday. BJP's response from what I gather from what writers who are familiar with the, I don't want to take names, have said seems to have been a dis-proportioned response which has caused some other undesirables on our side of the border. I believe all infrastructure workers stopped, de-fencing or repairing fencing has stopped. And there are 30000 people that had to leave their villages. So these are undesirable consequences.
NDTV: Like I said what would you do instead, keep the channels open with Pakistan?
P Chidambaram: Measure and ensure that the measure for measure response leads to talks in public domain.
NDTV: Arun Jaitley's exact comments on this was, 'earlier we had only a shield in hand and now we have a shield and a sword.'
P Chidambaram: That's very graphic. But the point is a shield in a hand with an unsheathed sword was quite effective in keeping the LoC quiet and peaceful in the many years, enabling us to construct infrastructure and improve our counter insurgency measures. A shield in hand and an unsheathed sword has undesirable consequences. I think if this would be debated, you will hear saner and more moderate voices who are familiar with the area, familiar with what's happening speak out more.
NDTV: In the end you had somebody like a Shashi Tharoor shown the door as the party's spokesperson just because he praised the Prime Minister's speech in the United Nations or his Clean India campaign. Does being in opposition party mean never praising, never appreciating somebody? Why would the Congress have such intolerance? Would you concede that this government has done anything right? Are you willing to concede that you did that or communication beyond that?
P Chidambaram: No of course, of course they have done some things right, any government, which does something, many things will be right.
NDTV: But why was he removed as the spokesperson?
P Chidambaram: I don't know why he was removed. But I think there were one or two statements that were over the top.
NDTV: For example?
P Chidambaram: I think he said something like his command in press and his personality has won over world leaders, something to that effect, isn't it? I read a statement, I wrote a statement, I talked to Shashi, he was, look this was over the top, pal.
NDTV: So now giving you the last word, how would you assess the Prime Minister's performance this far, the Government's performance this far?
P Chidambaram: Micro managing programmes and readdressing them and refurbishing them, putting it across I think they have done very well to capture the imagination of the people. But I don't see over-reaching policy, whether in defence or in foreign policy or in economics, too early to judge. 50 days, not the time to pass final judgment, this is not even the quarterly examination. So I think we should give them time. I think every government deserves to, they have had just one session, let's see what they unfold in the winter session of the Parliament. I would give them time. I won't be so quick to judge people.
NDTV: And do we see you back in active politics?
P Chidambaram: I am in active politics.
NDTV: But you have been missing the action in the last two months.
P Chidambaram: Explain why I observe restraint, that didn't stop me from issuing statements, I did issue statements when the GDP growth reported a growth of 5.7 percent in the first quarter, I issued a statement on monitory policy. I issued statements on a couple of policies, I am not quiet, I am watching observing, reading, making my own assessments and as I said, okay let them have till Diwali, let's talk. I am not authorized as the spokesperson of the party, I am doing it because I am in politics, I am active in politics and I will speak, I will write, I'll perhaps write now.
NDTV: Another memoir coming up?
P Chidambaram: No, no, not a memoir, as a contemporary commentator.
NDTV: Well it's a pleasure to have you on the programme P Chidambaram, thank you.