New Delhi:
With the nation outraged over the gang-rape of a 23-year-old medical student on a moving bus in Delhi, NDTV speaks to Speaker of the Lok Sabha, Meira Kumar.
NDTV: 24 hours ago you said that we must hang our heads in shame for what happened. Yet many would ask, given what we see in the Parliament, what change will it make? Will our law makers take this opportunity to change India for the better?
Meira Kumar: Certainly and we have to rise to this occasion. Our daughters, our sisters, our mothers are not safe in the society and as I said we should hang our heads in shame and specially in a country like India, where we have always said that women should be worshipped, mothers should be worshipped, womanhood should be respected. This is the kind of culture and thoughts that we talk of and then just like a paradox, it is such an irony that in a country where a thing like this happens, we are behaving differently.
NDTV: But Madam Speaker, when you say we are behaving differently, we are looking to our law makers, and expectations that something will change, the strictest punishment be given, not only in this case but other cases that happen. Yet again today I saw you looking very distressed when we saw ugly scenes in the Parliament. For many MPs it is back to business as usual, our politicians are back to work as usual.
Meira Kumar: Yes, you are putting this thing in that perspective. But as I said yesterday when I raised this issue, in fact they raised it and I responded. The House was wild, unanimous and everybody was very upset and today also, there was uproar in the House as you said. But when I read out what observations I had to make after I have met the lady MPs, you noticed that they all kept quiet. And they are all unanimous, so far as this issue is concerned, regardless of party affiliations, cutting across all political spectrum in the House, everybody is one. In one voice it was condemned, in one voice it was said that we should have very strict laws to ensure that it does not happen again, to ensure that our girls, our sisters, our mothers are safe.
NDTV: But why did you, to say when the women MPs came to the well, why the women MPs, why is it seen as a women's issue?
Meira Kumar: No I don't paint it like that. Women MPs came, but as you have noticed in the last two days, men have been also sort of expressing themselves with this cause. They have been very, very upset, they have been very distressed about it.
NDTV: When you see the anger that they reflected on the street, this automatically shows the disconnection between the law makers and the people out there on the street, asking for solutions. When we see you asking for the same as well, we hope for sure that things will change, it will be listened to. But the fact is the Parliament functions less and less. When will these laws be passed? Where is the time to pass these laws? Are these a priority?
Meira Kumar: Yes it is and this is what I have urged. I have said that I would like this action to be taken. I read it out. I said that first of all I would like to point out, that whenever a tragedy of this kind occurs, and the girl is the victim, then the reaction everywhere is that why was the girl wearing this particular kind of dress, why was she out on the road late in the night, why was she alone? You know all kind of characterisation is done; all kinds of aspersions are cast on the girl. You see in a situation like this, the girl is the victim, most of the people are blaming her for the wrong that has been done to her. And subsequently, throughout her life she is the one who suffers. So it's a very peculiar situation. So, I think we should first of all take steps to completely bar any kind of, even the slightest suggestion, of casting aspersions on her character. This must be banned. Otherwise you know so many girls suffer silently. Things happen to them and they don't want to report because they think they will be stigmatised. So that is the first step, this is what I read out in the House. Second is that we should have, and this is not Delhi specific, in all States, wherever it is required, we should have very senior IPS women officers, just exclusively looking after that aspect of the problem and then they should also be accountable. If they have grievances then they should be accountable to their superiors as to what action has been taken. There are so many important things, but I am just broadly taking this in order of issues which I think are important. The police force itself should be sensitised about the problem of women and how this should, how women should be handled. So yes, you started by saying that people on the road are looking for strict laws and I, in the Parliament, have asked for it and what is Parliament going to do about this. Yes I had discussions with our Leader of the House, who is also the Home Minister and he has assured, in fact he assured the House, that they will be very seriously looking into it and on a very urgent basis.
NDTV: Urgent doesn't mean, like we have seen in the Women's Reservation Bill, that is pending for many years, urgent doesn't mean of course, there is a cynicism of the Quota Bill or a bill that the government wants can go through with record speed. But the bills that are set against women's issues are never given a political priority and the issue like this is never a political priority. This is a rare case, but we know that rapes in India happen every 22 minutes.
Meira Kumar: Yes, yes I understand and I appreciate the apprehensions that you have and the others have, but I am going to pay personal attention to this and I will see to it. In fact, I have told the MPs in every session that why don't you have at least one discussion on women's problems, that will give it momentum, that will also put some kind of a pressure.
NDTV: Today of course it is India's problem and not just the women's problem in that sense. So how do you sensitise the male MPs? There is a feeling, you know when the Women's Reservation Bill came up, the male MPs said that '
acha chalo, we didn't want this, this is not a serious issue, we want a serious issue.' How do you change that mindset?
Meira Kumar: Yes, yes, it's a question of mindset. You are asking about male MPs in the House, so I would again say that on this issue they are all very sensitive, very distressed, they are in pain, there is no doubt about it. Yet so far as, again it is an issue which concerns men and it also concerns the mindset of the society. Mindset of the society is very important. You know you cannot legislate on attitude, on mindsets. So if you really want to pull the society out of this kind of mess, then you also have to think of changing the mindset, it's very important. You know the very subsidiary and low position of women in their households, violence of women in the households, children who have seen that their mothers are being beaten, children who have seen that the elders in the family are being beaten, then they have no respect for women. Then they go out on the road, it shows in their behaviour. So we have to be very particular about how much respect is being given to the women in the family.
NDTV: You said that you will give special attention to pushing stronger law. You also went on the first day after this happened to the hospital and met the family of the girl. Tell us about it.
Meira Kumar: Yes I went there. I didn't go to see the girl because she is in ICU and although they said I could go, but you know just because I am the Speaker I don't think I should take that liberty, and let her rest. But I did meet the father and the mother and I am so full of admiration for them. It has really touched me. They come from a very financially, very, very weak background and I don't think they have had the advantage of education, specially the mother. I don't think that she is literate. But what dignity. You know I didn't hear a single word of complaint, or reaction or anger. It's a very high level of sophistication which I rarely see, even amongst the elite and those who are very, supposed to be very sophisticated. And she told me that they eat
namak,
roti and they had a small plot of land which they sold off to make their daughter a doctor. They have two younger sons and you know, till today I have heard of people selling off their land to pay dowry for their daughter's wedding, and people sell their land to educate the son, but this is a rare case where they wanted to make their daughter a doctor. She was here looking for an internship and the father told me, it really touched me. He said, what has happened has happened, and this was an accident, but he doesn't want any other girl to suffer this kind of fate. I don't have words to describe how much I admire them for the inner strength that they have.
NDTV: Often, in fact it is the tragedy that has happened to people of India, who feel that again that anger of policing in Delhi and you have talked of the policing etc. But people have raised the issue again and again. You see the placards again and again saying that VIPs get security, why not us? Why is it that a girl in Delhi is not safe, why does her father have to see this? How would you answer that, when you know that the Delhi Police Force, that roughly percent, are on VIP security?
Meira Kumar: Yes you have a very valid point. We have to revisit all this. There are certain threats to some people, that are real threats, which I would like to be done away with. But of course there are many other security arrangements where there is no real threat. I think that all should be revisited. Over and above I think there should be sufficient, more than sufficient security arrangements on the road, in the buses, in public places, to ensure that women are safe and put the fear of God in those who have bad intentions.
NDTV: Outrage in the streets and the scenes in the Parliament today. What will you tell the people of India, who want to know, that it will not be back to business as usual, that this time our lawmakers will make sure that things change?
Meira Kumar: They should, because we have been elected by the people of this country. We are in the House and the floor of the House; we are there to debate, to discuss the pain, the anguish, the hopes, the aspirations of the people. That is our primary duty, that is why we are here.
NDTV: You see MPs grab a bill from the Minister, you see Ms Sonia Gandhi intervening, ugly scenes just 24 hours after you said we hang our heads in shame. Has anything changed?
Meira Kumar: Well that has happened. That is again very painful for me that it happened. I was presiding over it. We are finding some way as to how to overcome such a situation and it will not be repeated.
NDTV: You said you will take personal interest to see that a stronger law is passed to fight against rape, Ms Meira Kumar, I think everyone is just looking to you to make sure that it actually happens.