Actor Amitabh Bachchan along with director Prakash Jha spoke to NDTV's Sonia Singh in an exclusive interview. Here is the full transcript of the interview:
NDTV: Good evening and welcome to NDTV Dialogues. It's a show, which brings you a conversation of ideas. This week on NDTV Dialogues we look at protests in 21st century India and for that Dialogue I have with me tonight Prakash Jha, filmmaker and Amitabh Bachchan, the superstar, who are joining me as their new film
Satyagraha is all set for release. Mr Bachchan what drew you to this film, a film which is extremely timely, in a sense, given the context of protests not just in India but round the world that keep occurring, was that what drew you to it? What was the big learning?
Amitabh Bachchan: In the story, which is basically the story of a father who has lost his son, and a son in search of a father. There were many aspects of the story, which finally lead to the silent and the peaceful revolt. Why does it take place? What are the conditions that a common man goes through which enrages him, when he's denied certain privileges that should be his; and when the system is not able to live up to what they have promised, or what they are asking which is their right as a national of the country. Those little, little points, which we sometimes never face, you come to know about them. And that was important to know. How you can, how the farmer suffers because he's given up his land and he's taken the loan and the person who took the loan, the father is dead now and the son has paid back the money and wanting to have just the document to get his authorized land back. It's taking him years and years and years and he still doesn't have possession of it because the system, whatever it may be, is taking its own time.
NDTV: Mr Jha, the irony is that these aren't the extraordinary stories. These are the stories that are happening around us every day. Yet you take these films and you make it sure that your films are still about issues that are relevant to the everyday man. Often now films are larger than life, yours is also much about real life.
Prakash Jha: Well there are huge stories in real life and as Sir was saying and you just asked, in fact this idea of
Satyagraha, the film was born even when I was shooting Rajneeti. Because you know we were riding a huge wave. All over the world, the economic prosperity and it was a bubble which was going to burst and eventually the entire sense of aspiration, achievement, profit, the world looking beautiful, the holidays, the new houses, everything you know were riding on. It was bound to come to reality and I could see it.
It's started happening in America, it's started happening in European countries, I mean we were still riding the wave. But eventually what started attracting me was the growth of this social media along with this, where in the younger generation, the middle class, the educated class was getting connected and each one was sharing his or her experience and it became cumulative voice. And sure enough, the Tahrir Square or Wall Street and even in the recent history, even in the Anna Hazare movement, the protest in Brazil as you saw, like in hundreds and thousand of people, they came out in the street. This is the reality of today and what I kind of, like, you know, fortunately saw, it transforming into protest by young India, which is a very large population today.
The under-35 age is huge and powerful, connected that it doesn't now anymore need any political leadership or ideological goading to come out the street if they feel that the system is not functioning right, because remember, this is the post '90 generation which believes in performance because it has been trained to perform, either in the service industry, private sector, wherever, and it is not dependent on the govt. Like it doesn't say sarkar my baap anymore.
So this generation is asking questions. Why there are potholes on the road? Why there isn't electricity? Why the government hospitals are not working? Their parents have done, bent backwards to be able to educate them in English schools because the government schools are disfunctional. This generation is now asking questions as to why isn't the police functioning? Why are you so corrupt? Why don't you let your system get into order? And they come. They don't only speak now. They come out on the street and protest. They did so when the Nirbhaya happened and all thanks to the TV media and the social media and they are connected and they are ready to.
You know when I saw the water canons charging them in this bitter winter and they refused to move and they refused to get frightened by the lathis of the police and they forced the government to act. This is the new generation and Satyagraha, in the process of making, also has become our dialogue with young India.
NDTV: In that dialogue what is the underlying theme? Do you see a cynicism? Do you see anger? Or is there also idealism, in the sense, often now that cynicism protests as well? Mr Jha mentioned Anna Hazare's movement but now only the cynicism about it. Arvind Kejriwal joining politics, there's cynicism again. Do you see this is a time to be cynical, or a time to actually look forward?
Amitabh Bachchan: See first I think you have to be appreciative of the fact that it happened. It hadn't happened for many, many years. So there was somebody that was able to excite the people and the fact that so many people did come out lent a bit of relevance to what he was doing. What happened to it later on, what is going to happen later on, that's another story and I don't think that should be related to this at all. But I have often questioned why do you say that the movement is dead and its over and its finished, the Anna Hazare movement? Maybe technically it has, but has it, during the process of its existence, been able to ignite some feelings in some people?
And I feel that what happened for the Nirbhaya rape case was perhaps a ripple that was created at the time of Anna Hazare movement, and gave lots of confidence, strength of the people to come out and express themselves. And there have been subsequent incidents happening almost regularly now and it has been happening through out the ages
Prakash Jha: Recently Durga Shakti case
Amitabh Bachchan: Absolutely. So you know, I think that lets not look at it cynically. We're always in the habit of doing that, that's not a very healthy trend. Let's look at some of the positives that it creates. Yes we have to be aware of the negatives also and we have to be sure that whatever we are doing is within the rights of our Constitution, within the laws of our legality, but yes, let us not kill it entirely, you know, bracket it in this cynical envelope that you have created.
NDTV: I agree actually with that aspect and one aspect, which is perhaps disturbing about how the whole dialogue, in a sense, becomes us versus them, as some have said and perhaps that's what failed about is, because its society versus the politicians, sab neta chor hain, and in a sense even in the Durga Shakti case, the young woman concerned is still suspended. Where is the responsiveness or where do you see a dialogue happening, are governments listening to the voice of these young people?
Prakash Jha: Government is not listening because the government is completely detached. The ruling class today is completely detached. It's a pity. But then there comes the force that we're talking about. When something happens to Durga Shakti, thanks to the media, we all come to know about it in a matter of minutes. We all come to know the deep relationship, which the political class has with the mafia and the operations. We all come to know about the story about this honest woman in a matter of minutes and we all begin to express, thankfully because of the social media, and we all galvanized into protest and we make them understand that you can't anymore do what you want without us noticing you and we shall get together to express. This is heartening.
When you talked about cynicism, I am completely optimistic about the whole thing. What probably needs to be done, what also we have discussed in
Satyagraha is, we live in a democracy, we have adopted it, we have nurtured it and we are proud of it. There may be a basic fault with our democracy because its been practiced in unequal society, which is going to take a lot of time to be able to include the whole society in its process, but nevertheless the concept is fantastic. There is nothing better that this.
And in a democracy, we must engage in the political activity. And this is where I have a little bit of problem with Anna Hazare's movement. It was great idea. It really galvanized the whole lot of force and we are drawing from it. I mean we haven't forgotten about it altogether. But somehow or the other it became an autocratic kind of exercise, where you wanted something to be performed in a democratic manner and that doesn't happen. You either chose that or this. So in the process of democracy we must engage our self politically, as probably Gandhi would have done.
If Gandhi was here today he would have channelised the anger of the young people of India into a huge political force, because whether you participate in electoral politics and stand for elections is one thing, but if you engage your mind, your intent politically, and that's what going to produce results and proper democratic results and that is what is the future and that is what I am seeing today.
NDTV: In fact that's interesting because both of you in different way engaged in electoral politics and withdrew for different reasons. Is that also a drawback? In the sense that we see so many young people, we say we want to improve the system and we won't get into politics because we find that this is no place for it or we just don't want to get involved in that system. Do you see that as a drawback? I mean, I've interviewed you before, you've said politics is one mistake I'd never repeat. Do you think now going ahead to young people would you say perhaps they should join politics, be part of it?
Amitabh Bachchan: Yes, I agree that if I have failed in a particular aspect or a project I withdraw from it because I am unqualified for it. But that's another matter. There are many other ways of also associating yourselves. You have your voting at the end of 5 years. So rather than deliberately going and joining politics and express your views, there are many that do that, and God bless them because they are more qualified than I am. But we also have other means of expressing ourselves and that is through the vote. To be able to put our vote to the right people and make sure that they come out victorious and bring in change that you perhaps wanted to see.
Prakash Jha: But Sonia it's already happening. Like yesterday what brought us on the street was the, lets say, the prerogative of the political party, the trade unions or some or the other institutions. Today it is not
NDTV: Now they don't even get covered anymore because angry protests dominate
Prakash Jha: They don't even get covered any more. Yes so now in the domain of the common man, common people like who would crave it because of something they come out, this is what is happening. Like tomorrow politics is not going to be the domain of only the political parties, believe me. It will become a matter of public domain and people will come up, express opinions, and there will be leaders who would probably be more qualified than the two of us sitting over here...
Amitabh Bachchan: Certainly more
Prakash Jha: ... more committed and I mean that I make such films, which deal with chronicling the social, political, history of our society, are political. So I am engaging myself politically
NDTV: So you're part of the political process
Prakash Jha: Yes.
NDTV: But since you've also seen it, also intimately you've seen the other side of politics as well, in Bihar, is of course so much heart of the political churn that we see right now. What disillusioned you from actually being a part of it, because you decided to take the plunge?
Prakash Jha: I was never disillusioned
NDTV: But then you actually withdrew from that election
Prakash Jha: Because I had given 10 years. I had mentally given 10 years of my life or had I succeeded, I would have served my Constituency. And you know I just felt that if I would be a Member of Parliament and people's representative, then I would have access to resources, which I could bring about in my Constituency, and try and bring about as much change and discipline in progress. That didn't happen because the only qualification you could have to serve them was to have their votes, and I got, sort of lost the second time as well.
And I am past that 10 years of age, which I had given for public service. So I just wanted the job. I was political then, I am political now, shall remain political because I enjoy observing, seeing, analyzing and trying to understand whatever happens socially, and find stories to be able to tell others. That's what I love doing and I shall continue to, in my own way, instigate, inspire the younger generation to be able to engage more.
NDTV: So you were part of politics so many years ago. What are the changes that you've seen in politics around, you were part of politics many years ago, what are the changes you've now seen because you're still are a keen observer of the process around us? You're very active in the social media; you express opinions on current affairs, what are the changes in the politics around us?
Amitabh Bachchan: I've actually not expressed myself because it quite unnecessarily invites controversy and we have enough of our own to be dealing with and not create any more. But politics is something that I didn't know. I went on to it in an emotional note and soon realized that the emotion doesn't really have much of a part to play in politics. So overwhelmed by what I saw around me, and knowing that I was completely out of place here I withdrew. I still observe it from a distance and I like to keep those opinions to myself, because I feel that expressing them is not going to be either beneficial to me or to anybody else.
NDTV: Just asking specifically about, because when we are talking about politics and specifically in Bihar, Mr Jha, when we see the kind of politics that we practice now, on one hand you have say youth and urban youth which is out, but very often the rural youth is completely ignored in these protests including by television cameras.
So if we have a tragic accident in Delhi you'll have the youth here covered on the streets, but when it happens in Bihar or Uttar Pradesh or other parts of India it's ignored. Often the politicians there will be practicing very different kinds of politics and perhaps politicians from Delhi will, because they feel that, you know, that this is the Bharat versus India divide. Do you think that's an issue that we really need to resolve? Are you worried when you see reports of communal clashes? Reports of caste clashes still coming in 67 years of Independence?
Amitabh Bachchan: Well I'll just interrupt there.
NDTV: Sure
Amitabh Bachchan: I do feel that the media will have to play that part rather than anybody else. The moment that that villager to talk of is exposed to what you expose they will rise too. It's just that they haven't had the opportunity to see what is happening. They are frightened, scared to express themselves because they have always lived very oppressed kind of existence. But the moment that they will get an opportunity for their own voices to be heard, for them to be seen through a medium like yours, they will begin to express themselves. And it will happen very shortly because the television media is spreading so rapidly in this country and it is the largest in the entire universe. The spread of television, I mean, what do we have something like 400 -500 channels, its unheard of.
NDTV: Sir, over 700
Amitabh Bachchan: Over 700 and another 50, another 150 odd applications for further channels. So it's unheard of in any part of the universe. And it will reach that common man, that villager and the moment he gets the strength and the importance of his voice, through your medium, he will express himself.
Prakash Jha: It's only a matter of time. It's already happening Sonia. You see, even in films you can see more small town subjects coming up
Amitabh Bachchan: Not just films, look at our sports people.
Prakash Jha: In sports
Amitabh Bachchan: Where has MS Dhoni come out from?
Prakash Jha: In, and even the regional, like I mean, every big channel today is thinking about having regional presence, small town presence. It's happening already and you see people, say internet, traveling down to villages and people getting connected. I mean if you really see, the traffic on internet increasing. And it will happen, like you know, so rapidly the moment we have access to the media.
The moment you have stories coming in from smaller towns it's bound to happen, because the focus now is shifting from the metropolis to the smaller towns. This is a process, the social process you know, which you know, old people like me who are observing, who are trying to, they see it happening. As I said the whole method of protest is changing, the whole method of expression is changing and eventually when they see the turf for politics, you know, available to them they will take over that turf. They will definitely, you know, begin to speak in that language. Let's wait and watch
Amitabh Bachchan: And most of the people, just to add to what Prakash ji is saying, most of the people that have, let's say, made it in big metropolises, where do they come from? Where have they actually come from? When you and me look back at our own life stories we say gosh. I was born in a small town. Okay I had an opportunity and fate and luck brought me to a city where I was able to, you know, perhaps excel in whatever I was doing. But there is always that background of having come out from some place small and that is the importance that we all give and we are so proud of. So when somebody makes something like Prakash Ji was saying, makes a film from small town India, there is immediate identification because all of us have a story that is linked to that period.
NDTV: When you look at Satyagraha and of course Sir and you have drawn a lot also from what Mahatma Gandhi said, it's interesting that in the 67 years the only person we seem to find, who everybody went with hope and already we cast as another Gandhi, was Anna Hazare. Why have we failed to produce leaders of that caliber? When you look around today, you say that a leader, because in a sense even a youth protest needs leadership, where are those leaders today?
Prakash Jha: It's a bit difficult to immediately find them and probably new designs will emerge because as I see, Gandhi was unique, he was selfless, he was deeply political. He was a humanitarian. He was not afraid to experiment with himself. Gandhi, you know, such people get made once in a few centuries. So comparing with Gandhi it probably will be difficult. We will have newer form of kind of like efficient people serving the society, which I'm sure that will emerge, when you know the reason, that we are not, we don't do so well in Olympics is, the reason is that we don't have the exposure. But the moment you see people from smaller towns have started coming, the Sindhus, the Sainas, the Kashyap's. The moment exposure has been available the small town people have started coming up and excelling. That is what I think will happen in politics or humanities or whatever.
NDTV: So do you think there will be a new leader? Because currently of course the whole dialogue is about whether it will be a Nitish Kumar, who can be a new leader for a new India, whether it can be a Rahul Gandhi, whether it can be a Narendra Modi? Are those the issues you involve yourself with at all as a political filmmaker?
Prakash Jha: There will have to be a new leader, a new kind of leader who will be a seen as kind of performing because this generation is looking for performance. This generation is looking for a, you know, equality. Because the reason we have malfunction of democracy is because it is being practiced in an unequal society, When you do not have a society which includes the two India's together, it's very difficult to kind of practice democracy, because one set of people will definitely get affected, you know, by the other set. And the very basic tenet of democracy is functioning of numbers you know and if the numbers are uninformed, then most of the times you know the majority may be wrong.
NDTV: Do you support this whole Narendra Modi versus Rahul Gandhi? It's become about two men really in India now if you look at the elections. Do you support this whole Narendra Modi versus Rahul Gandhi kind of dialogue or the description that has become now?
Prakash Jha: I think it's more of a media created thing. I think people are not looking at the two men that you are talking about in terms of fighters in a boxing ring or a kind of wrestling arena. They will look for someone they begin to trust or believe who is going to lead the way and who is going to perform. And it could happen in individual terms or through the institutions they create or through the myth they are able to weave around. But this will always be the case. And why just these two, there are, as you just said, there are others you know
NDTV: Nitish Kumar. Do you support any of them? Do you support any of these people? Do you think that any of them would be a good leader for India at this current stage?
Prakash Jha: Well all of them will have qualities which will be good and all of them will have deficiencies which will be you know a matter of concern. Only time can tell as to who will be the best. But I think if there is a consensus, which propels any one of them into the seat, then they probably will be forced to perform to the expectation. Otherwise you know, as this generation has come to know, that if they do not perform they will be kicked out of their job. That's what may happen. But I am expecting that in a couple of decades, it might still take a couple of decades for the Indian democracy to mature really.
Still you know, it's functioning, you know, in its functioning, it's an infant. 67 years of democracy is, Sonia, nothing. You need a couple of centuries for society to mature, to be able to practice real democracy. We are doing great because we have this freedom to express, to protest and which is what I have come to marvel at this point of time, that even younger people, younger generation who we may consider as not deeply rooted in our society or culture or morality, but they have the voice, and their voice really matters today. That's what it is.
NDTV: I won't ask you names because I know you don't want to get into that but what kind of leader should India have today? What are the qualities you would like to see in a leader of India today?
Amitabh Bachchan: Well somebody that you can look up to, have faith and confidence in and be assured that he is going to be or she is going to be responsible for taking this country forward. We want to grow. We want to be the best in the world
Prakash Jha: Who will take all of us together
Amitabh Bachchan: Yes somebody who will, yes, somebody who will listen to the voice of the nation and that is what has been sort of subtly put across in the film as well through my character. But I wish that somebody would listen to the voices of....
Prakash Jha:Desh chalane wale log kat gaye hain
Amitabh Bachchan: ... got a little separated from because of the situation in the film of course, and if somebody were to listen to them then we wouldn't have this problem, these issues, this violence, this defiance and this corruption, whatever it is, and that's the kind of leadership that we all want. I do believe that yes, we are a developing nation and that is purely because of our history and our circumstances. I love my country just like anybody else and I look upon it as a nation that I am very proud of. I hate the word developing country because I feel we should be a developed nation. I hate the fact that we are called a third world nation and I want to be called the first world nation.
But if I, you know very systematically look back and I say 67 years of being independent we have been able to do a lot more than many other countries have been able to do in such a short period of time, I am very proud of that and I think that within 60-70 years to be falling into, in nomenclature with the States, that you're looking at this country as being a future superpower, that's fantastic.
Prakash Jha: That we have been able to preserve our freedom for 67 years, freedom of expression, that you exist as a channel
NDTV: Very loudly and chaotically, yes
Prakash Jha: Very loud yes and that you do not spare anyone, no matter who is or he she is, you know, in your analysis, in your assumptions that I can come out in the street and shout against anyone if I am aggrieved. That we have been able to preserve, that is huge. That is not a small thing.
NDTV: Finally as we end, what's the biggest challenge you would think India faces today if we, the
Satyagraha you talk about in this film, what is the one Satyagraha that India needs to have, to fight against?
Prakash Jha: I think the most important challenge that the country faces today is the deep division between the haves and the have-nots. That I think is one thing, which hurts me most. To see the kind of two lives people living as neighbors in the same cities, in the same villages, to see constantly government coming up with policies, which are economically wrong, which eventually are not benefiting the society at large.
NDTV: Food security
Prakash Jha: Security of the have-nots. You know whether it is the popular kind of like programmes or you know the market driven policies. They are both wrong because they have to have. There has to be in everything that you do, there has to be inclusion of the society. If you do not do that, you are creating division and those divisions are going you know far and wide. I would like to see an India growing together. I would like to, you know, see we helping each other and not merely lip service, but in every other way. And that is something, which I think is the biggest challenge, like no matter who comes to lead us should lead us all together.
NDTV: Mr Bachchan if you were actually leading a real life Satyagraha today, the biggest challenge you think?
Amitabh Bachchan: The complexity of the nation is one of its biggest drawbacks. It's also, it's one of its beautiful aspects that we are able to live together in a country where people are so diverse in their beliefs, in their culture, in their languages. It's not an easy country to govern, and I think through centuries a lot of people have expressed this. That is the uniqueness of this country. Fine. But I still feel that because we love our country so much, I see and I would want to look at the positivity of the fact that we are so diverse, and we have the opportunity to express ourselves in the kind of democratic system that we live in. There are bound to be challenges and even the most developed nations are facing problems and they will face problems in the future as well. We will face problems.
What really matters to me is what attitude we take when the problems come to us, and whether we are able to deal with them in the correct way or not. And I want to look for that and I hope that it happens, because that is what makes a nation great.
NDTV: Mr.Bachchan, Mr Jha thank you both very much for joining me tonight and all the best with the film. Thank you.