New Delhi:
United States Deputy Secretary of State William Burns speaks to NDTV in an exclusive interview after meeting Prime Minister Narendra Modi - the first official contact between the Obama administration and the Modi government. In the interview, he described Mr Modi as a "very impressive man".
Speaking about a report that America's National Security Agency was authorized to snoop on the BJP, he said he understands India's concerns on the controversy but added that he was "not at liberty to say more in public".
Following is the full transcript of the interview:NDTV: It's been an uneasy year for the relationship between India and the United States, with some pointing out that the relationship appeared to have lost its momentum, even seeing serious friction at times. But now both countries are trying to put the past behind and working not just for the strategic dialogue towards the end of the month, but also that big meeting between Prime Minister Modi and President Barack Obama. The first high level official contact between the Obama administration and the Modi government has taken place this morning in Delhi when US Deputy Secretary of State William Burns met with Prime Minister Modi. He is here with us on the programme now. A pleasure to be talking to you and welcome to India even though it's a short visit.
William Burns: Well, it's very nice to see you and I'm delighted to be back in India.
NDTV: How did that meeting go? I think a lot of people in India are wondering where this relationship is headed, it hasn't seen a good year, let's not mince words, let's not pull our punches. How did your meeting with Prime Minister Modi go?
William Burns: It was an excellent discussion and Prime Minister Modi is a very impressive man. He has obviously won a very strong mandate from the people of India to reinvigorate India's development and its rise on the world stage. And I'm absolutely convinced that that presents a very significant opportunity to reinvigorate the partnership between the US and India, because I'm equally convinced that the US can contribute in some very important ways to the success of India and of Prime Minister Modi. I listened very carefully to the priorities that he has laid out for India, reflected in the budget, and I think in terms of economic growth, in terms of cooperation, of energy security, defence and security and a range of other issues, those are very practical ways in which we can work together and make a reality of the nice slogan, which is 'strategic partnership'. Our challenge is really to give that tangible life and I'm convinced that in the run-up to the Prime Minister's important visit to Washington at the end of September, and beyond that, we can lay out a very practical road map to deepen our partnership and to show that the partnership between the United States and India can contribute in important ways to a safer and prosperous world.
NDTV: We'll get to the economic relationship in just a moment, but were you able to finalise the dates between President Obama and Prime Minister Modi? Do we know whether Mr Modi will be addressing a joint session of the US Congress?
William Burns: Well, the meeting between the President and the Prime Minister will be at the end of September, 30th of September at the White House. Certainly I think it would be a terrific opportunity for the Prime Minister to have a chance to address our Congress, and that's obviously some thing for the Congressional leadership to determine. I know Senator McCain was here recently and discussed...
NDTV: ...and suggested the same
William Burns: .... and he'll be a strong advocate in Washington. So we want to take maximum advantage of this visit as an opportunity to for both of us to renew and reinvigorate our partnership.
NDTV: Now this is a relationship that, especially when it comes to Prime Minister Modi, has seen its degree of friction. To start with, there was, what for shorthand we call the visa issue. Mr Modi as Chief Minister of Gujarat was not able to go to the US. It was considered a near total boycott for almost a decade. It has been pointed out that this little known law to stop him from coming was actually only ever used against one politician in the world and that was Narendra Modi. Did this come up in your conversation at all this morning?
William Burns: No. Our conversation this morning was very much about the future and about the promise and opportunity in our relationship. And as I said before, and as President Obama said in his telephone call to the Prime Minister just after his election, we recognise the very strong mandate that he's won, and we have a deep interest and stake in his success and in India's success. And so we are looking forward this time. And as I said, he's a very impressive man and I very much enjoyed our conversation.
NDTV: Looking back to your belief that the US made a mistake, was it a misjudgment, is it a decision you regret to have not enabled? I know the State Department position continued to be that he was free to apply for a visa, but once it was rejected he was probably not going to do that again. Looking back, do you feel that the US made a mistake? I know it was the previous regime, but it could be pointed out that the Obama administration didn't do much to change it.
William Burns: I'm a big believer in looking forward. I think there are huge opportunities before us, and I think the Prime Minister very much shares that feeling, and so what we want to try to do is take advantage of this moment of possibilities.
NDTV: So you're saying it belongs to the past, the visa issue?
William Burns: I'm saying that, you know, the record of the concerns that were expressed at that time was well known. But rather than dwell on that now, what's significant now in the interest of both Americans and Indians, of our two governments, our two societies, is to look ahead, and I welcome the spirit that Prime Minister Modi brings to our relationship.
NDTV: Let's talk about then a problem in the present. India has summoned a diplomat of the US to express very grave concerns about the revelations, first out in the Washington Post, that the BJP, as a political party, was snooped upon by the NSA surveillance programme. You are aware of these concerns, you've been quizzed about them before. But we haven't seen much elucidation from the US about this. Now, there are people going, why would the US want to spy on the BJP, along with the PPP in Pakistan, along with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt? Surely this has to cast somewhat of a shadow on the relationship today.
William Burns: Well, I understand the seriousness of the concerns that have been raised. I am simply not in a position to comment publicly on those specific allegations. But what I can say is that we'll continue to deal with these concerns, both professionally and in diplomatic channels.
NDTV: And you don't feel that this is something that could impact the relationship? Because there has been a formal response from the Indian government, this isn't only a journalist's question. So, it clearly sits there on the table between the two of you as an area of friction.
William Burns: No. And I don't mean for a moment to minimize or dismiss the concerns that have been raised. We take seriously the concerns that a partner raises with us. President Obama has been very clear, including in his speech that he gave some months ago, about our determination to try and strengthen trust between, especially between, partners on issues like this, and look for ways in which we can actually strengthen intelligence cooperation against shared threats. So I can't comment beyond that on the specific issues.
NDTV: But you are fighting fires globally. Germany for example has asked the CIA Station chief to leave because of this row, so is there at least a sense, I understand that you are constrained on how much you can say on this, is there at least a sense at the highest levels of the administration that something went wrong here and it needs to be reviewed?
William Burns: Well, there's certainly a sense of concern that's been raised by a number of important allies and partners. We take it seriously, as I said, and we'll continue to pursue it professionally.
NDTV: Let's talk about another very important area. It almost came to define the Indo-US equation for a few years under the Manmohan Singh government and that was the big, the nuclear deal. Now it's ironic that we had a previous Prime Minister who almost lost his government because of this deal, but actually this deal, after all these years, after all that noise, is still waiting to be operationalised. Where does that stand today for Washington?
William Burns: Well, I think, I'm very familiar with the history of this having played a part in it in 2008, when we completed the Civil Nuclear Agreement and the negotiations, so I'm intimately familiar with, I think the efforts that both sides made to accomplish that. And that moment of possibility that existed then. It's been frustrating for the both of us that we haven't been able to build on it as quickly and as effectively as we would have liked. I think we have seen some steps in the right direction, in both of our interests, last year when the West House entered into an initial agreement...
NDTV: ... that's just a statement of intent in some ways
William Burns: But it's a step in the right direction, I think. More recently we've seen an announcement from the government about an attempt to ratify the additional protocol
NDTV: The nuclear watchdog...
William Burns: Right, an important element of the, what the IAEA, the nuclear watchdog does. We need to keep working at this together. I think the prospect of Westinghouse or GE or any other American company being involved in the actual construction of a civil nuclear facility is something that benefits the both of us. It brings to bear the state of the art technology. It helps Indians address what is the huge and increasing demand for energy and electricity. And so we are confident that we are going to be able to move ahead in the future, we just need to continue to work hard at this.
NDTV: When you say it has been frustrating for both countries, where do you think the problem is? Where do you think the hold up is?
William Burns: Well, I mean, obviously we have expressed our concerns about the liability legislation that was passed. Obviously there were concerns on the Indian side which helped motivate that legislation. This is just something we are going to have to sort through as partners, and continue to work at, because I'm convinced that there remains considerable promise attached to that Civil Nuclear Agreement, for both India as well as the United States.
NDTV: The reason I ask is because when the liability legislation was being debated in the Parliament, the BJP was in the Opposition and they felt very strongly that suppliers should not be exempted from liability, which of course is the area of concern with the US and many of your big companies there. So are you apprehensive that the BJP, having had this position on record, will take a much more aggressive approach on the liability issue?
William Burns: No, I think first the concern that has been expressed by the United States is not unique to Americans. I mean a number of other potential nuclear suppliers have expressed that concern. Simply because there's an international practice here, on liability, that we think ought to be applied. But having said that, I'm confident that we can work with this government to make progress on this issue, which I think is an important component of helping India meet the increasing energy demand in the future, which obviously the Prime Minister has laid out as an important priority for his government. So whether it's in terms of nuclear energy or in terms of clean and renewable energy, in terms of the potential for increased American exports of liquefied natural gas to help meet Indian need, I think energy is an area where we can do a lot together in the coming years.
NDTV: Well, let me ask you candidly, if the legislation remains where it does and the liability concerns do not change, and India continues to insist that the suppliers are also liable, do you think the nuclear deal could take off, in real terms with the United States of America?
William Burns: I think there should be possibilities of making further progress. I think the liability issue remains of concern and I'm hopeful that we'll find ways to address it together.
NDTV: Did the Prime Minister indicate anything on this issue in his meeting with you?
William Burns: We didn't talk in detail about the issue, although we did have a conversation about energy as an area for cooperation between us. And since the Prime Minister is well aware of this issue, since Gujarat is an intended site for the Westinghouse project in particular, I believe, with a practical focus, that the two of us can work together to try to create the climate in which we can move ahead on that issue.
NDTV: Now the economic relationship is one big piece of this puzzle that is being put back together as it were, the Indo-US equation. There was a sense that the world was a bit dismayed at the investment climate, for example, in India that was a kind of economic paralysis, that was even a domestic critique. Do you have reason to be more hopeful since a new government has taken charge? You heard the Budget, you mentioned the Budget, did it offer you anything that made you believe that it is a favourable signal for foreign investors?
William Burns: Well certainly the broad message that the Prime Minister has sent and that's reflected in the Budget is that India wants to demonstrate that it's open for business, to improve, for example, the World Bank ranking that places India relatively low in terms of ease of doing business, and the Prime Minister seems quite determined, both publicly and in our conversation today, to change that image in very practical ways. The Budget, in specific terms, in raising the caps on FDI, and defence and insurance and e-commerce suggests movement in that direction. And I think there are plenty of American companies well positioned to try to take advantage of those openings. So I think there's a real opportunity here to help India accelerate its economic growth in a way that also helps the American economy.
NDTV: So, you're happy with the signals so far?
William Burns: So far I think it's a step in the right direction and obviously the Prime Minister has made it clear he wants to continue to build on that.
NDTV: Now before I ask you a little bit about the neighborhood, this meeting, this summit meeting between President Obama and the Prime Minister, what will be on the agenda?
William Burns: First is to take that term 'strategic partnership', to which both the President and the Prime Minister are quite committed, and turn it into a tangible reality so that it's not just about events, or lists of meetings but practical achievements. I think in the economic area I think there are huge opportunities as India addresses its infrastructural development needs, the things the United States can do, the things the American government can do, to encourage companies and facilitate investment. Energy, as I said is another example of that, that's directly connected to the prospects for revived economic growth or accelerated growth. Then I think you look at the underpinnings of development, whether it is in education and skills development, an important priority for the Prime Minister which we discussed today, things the US can do to contribute to that.
Health, food security, water security, a whole range of infrastructure issues connected to Indian cities. the US can share the benefit of our experience and our technology and innovation in ways that I think can be very helpful. I think the challenge now for our two leaderships, and for all of us who share a deep interest in our partnership, is to make a tangible reality of that strategic partnership. And I'm convinced that their meeting at the end of September offers a real opportunity to renew the momentum in our partnership.
NDTV: Let's just look a little bit at the neighbourhood. It's often said that this is now a de-hyphenated relationship when it comes to India and Pakistan. Yet it also has to be admitted that terror groups that continue to operate in Pakistan remain, not just a concern for India, but for the US as well. You were in Pakistan, your statement, I read your statement that talked about closing safe havens that offer terrorist sanctuaries. A few days ago the US confirmed what was suspected in India, that the LeT was responsible for the attack on our consulate in Herat. Why has the US not been able to create effective pressure on Pakistan to crack down on someone like Hafiz Saeed, who is able to roam about in Pakistan with absolute impunity?
William Burns: It has been a genuine frustration for us and we continue to be quite candid in expressing our concerns to the Pakistani leadership, including when I was there a couple of months ago. You know the terrible terrorist attack that took place in Mumbai cost six American lives as well. So we have a deep interest in ensuring that the people who were responsible for that are brought to justice, and to doing everything that we can to ensure that groups, LeT do not threaten not just Indians, as significant as that threat is, but also Americans, or people anywhere in the world.
NDTV: So why haven't you been able to do more, you have so much clout with Pakistan, so much power or influence over them, why haven't you been able to do more?
William Burns: We often get more credit than we deserve for clout sometimes, but we will continue to push these issues very seriously and very hard.
NDTV: Does it concern you that Hafiz Saeed is out there free, he is the patron saint as it were of the LeT?
William Burns: Well, it certainly concerns us, for all the reasons that you described, and that's why this remains a high priority in our relationship with Pakistan. And you know, we will continue to work at this.
NDTV: You say it's a matter of concern, that Hafiz Saeed is out there. What do you believe is stopping Pakistan from acting against groups like LeT? There has been a suggestion that one of the reasons that groups like the Lashkar continue to survive is because there are elements in Pakistan's security establishment, whether in the ISI, whether in the military, that use these groups as strategic assets.
William Burns: I honestly don't want to speculate about the reasons for the lack of movement on some of those issues. All I can say is that the US continues to make this a high priority and we will continue to push it because it matters. And it matters not only to the US or to India, or to any other of Pakistan's neighbours, it matters to Pakistan itself. Because groups like Lakshar represent a threat to Pakistan's own future and its stability and its potential prosperity.
NDTV: Many high ranking officials have over the years have made the point, especially after the Bin Laden raid as it were, that there are other high-profile terrorists who could be hiding in Pakistan, Mullah Omar has been named, Zawahiri has been named. Does the US consider it within its domain to act against these terrorists, just as you did against Bin Laden?
William Burns: Well.. On those issues....
NDTV: You're not going to tell me whether you're going to raid them again.
William Burns: I'm not going to speculate publicly, but all I would say, as President Obama has made very clear, is that we take those kinds of threats, international threats very seriously.
NDTV: Let me ask you in the end a global question, and that question is, we know that you are in nuclear talks with Iran, we know that there's this complete chaos unfolding in Iraq. Do you believe the Iraq moment presents itself with a rare opportunity, alongside these talks that you are holding with Iran, to re-forge the relationship between Iran and the US?
William Burns: I think that the nuclear negotiations are on their own track at this point. And again they are not just between the United States and Iran, it's really the international community embodied in the P5+1, and Iran, those talks are complicated and difficult which shouldn't surprise anybody. I found the Iranian negotiators over the last years quite professional and quite tough, which is no surprise. And I think the gaps that remain between the P5+1 and Iran at this point are quite significant. We need to continue to work at it and we are determined to do that.
NDTV: Would you say that the talks are progressing?
William Burns: I would say that there is a lot of ground that has to be covered if we're going to get to a comprehensive agreement. I think the US and India share a common concern about Iran not developing a nuclear weapon, given our common concern about stability in the Middle East, a part of the world which, as you were suggesting before, has more than its share of instability right now. So we'll stay in very close touch with our partners in India on this issue, just as we do on Iraq. We have tried to share all the information that we had on the citizens that were abducted. It's a blessing that the nurses, Indian nurses were able to depart.
NDTV: Were you helping the Indians in any way in that evacuation?
William Burns: We'll do everything we can to provide information and work quietly and professionally with our Indian partners on these issues, because my point is simply that we share a concern about instability in that country, which has a real danger, as it does in Syria, of not only spilling over into the neighbourhood, but of allowing a platform to be established in those countries by the Sunni extremists, that can then be used to export the extremism and violence to other parts of the world, and that's something again I think the US, and India and our partnership needs to address.
NDTV: Well, Deputy Secretary of State, William Burns, thank you.