Islamabad:
As Pakistan's opposition continues to press for the exit of President Asif Ali Zardari-led civilian government due to the escalating crisis in the country, there is just one thing that every political party in the country seems to agree on - that there will be no military coup.
Speaking exclusively to NDTV's Barkha Dutt in Islamabad, opposition leader and Tehreek-e-Insaaf chief Imran Khan also joined the chorus and said, "The age of martial law in Pakistan is now permanently over." The army, he says, realizes that people will not accept this anymore.
The threat to Pakistan's government's survival lies in two matters that are before the Supreme Court - one accuses the government of using a secret memo to ask the US for help against a military takeover; the other holds Pakistan PM Yousuf Raza Gilani responsible for failing to re-open cases of corruption against President Asif Ali Zardari. The government's legal battles intersect with unprecedented hostility with the army.
Leaders like Imran Khan have said they are firmly against the Zardari government, but also firmly against allowing a military coup. Mr Khan, whose rallies have been drawing huge audiences, has said that his party supports the Supreme Court. He has also accused Mr Gilani of trying to shield a corrupt President Zardari.
On Monday evening, an embattled Zardari government won a trust vote in Parliament, with its pro-democracy resolution being passed by a majority. Emboldened by this victory, its top leadership is now asserting that there is no question of the PM resigning or the government being sacked.
Here's the transcript of what Imran Khan told NDTV:
NDTV: You have every reason to smile today, don't you?
Imran: Uh, yes. Not just because my party is...
NDTV: on the ascendant, yeah
Imran:...and is now the number one party and has the biggest public support but because I think our democracy has evolved. And these entire crises, as you just mentioned in your opening remarks, what has come out is that the army is no longer prepared to come out in the open.
NDTV: The age of the coup is over in a sense.
Imran: The age of martial law is over.
NDTV: It's over, yeah.
Imran: ...because the memogate scandal is such a shameful scandal, that if ever the army would have intervened, it would have been then. Because, it's effectively a president asking the United States, to come and help him get rid of the Army hierarchy so that he could serve them better. That's in effect the memogate and normally, the army would have...that would have been enough to take over. I mean, as it is, there is public outrage against that and so you would've had the public backing. But, Pakistan has moved on and I think that the army realizes now that people are not going to accept military takeovers anymore. At the same time, the Supreme Court, I mean the Supreme Court has taken a stand. Finally, the Supreme Court, for the first time in Pakistan you're seeing the court taking on the powerful. Normally, the Supreme Court has been a part of the executive and taken orders from the government literally. First time, the Supreme Court is challenging the most powerful people in this country and challenging the corruption cases. And so, we have a vibrant media which is a third pillar and we have a very politically aware public.
NDTV: But, here is the catch in your argument. The catch is, the supporters of this government, the sympathizers of this government, and many liberal voices in Pakistan are saying that this is a test case for democracy, that an elected government should be allowed to complete its tenure, and why is the opposition pushing for an early election?
Imran: Well, it would....in normal circumstances I would agree. But now, what is this government trying to do? It's trying to demolish an independent Supreme Court. What is...are early elections going to destroy a democracy? Or if the independent judiciary is destroyed, would that destroy a democracy? Pakistan, as I said, has moved on. First time we've had an independent Supreme Court. Now, if this government takes on the Supreme Court just so, then it can protect Asif Zardari's corruption of billions of dollars. I'm afraid, that if you stand...if people stand by the judiciary and it wins, then our democracy wins. If our judiciary loses, our democracy loses.
NDTV: What do you say to those voices in your country who are suggesting that in some ways, the judiciary and the military in this country are on the same side in this debate?
Imran: I don't know if there is any indication of that but all I know is that the Supreme Court has been very lenient with this government. I mean this...the day the NRO was cut down, an NRO brokered by the Bush administration which Condoleezza Rice writes in her book, that she helped waive off all corruption cases of Benazir and 8000 people, corruption cases of over a trillion rupees, were waived off. Would they do that in their own countries?
NDTV: I want to ask you, there are those who say Imran Khan's been backed by the Pakistani army, I read this all the time in the Pakistani media.
Imran: Well, this is what all the politicians are petrified of. Because they don't know what's happened, how come this tsunami has suddenly built up? But if the army has now helped us, then surely it must be manipulating the Pew polls which are American opinion polls where Tehreek-e-Insaaf has been number one for now six months. YouGov polls in England; there we've been number one. All the polls which are conducted in Pakistan, we're the number one party now. So surely, they must be manipulating that. And then, a quarter of million people turn up in Lahore, and a quarter of a million in Karachi. General Musharraf, when he was the head of the ISI and the army, he couldn't pull a miniscule crowd compared to that. Forget the passion in the crowd, aren't they overestimating the army?
Speaking exclusively to NDTV's Barkha Dutt in Islamabad, opposition leader and Tehreek-e-Insaaf chief Imran Khan also joined the chorus and said, "The age of martial law in Pakistan is now permanently over." The army, he says, realizes that people will not accept this anymore.
The threat to Pakistan's government's survival lies in two matters that are before the Supreme Court - one accuses the government of using a secret memo to ask the US for help against a military takeover; the other holds Pakistan PM Yousuf Raza Gilani responsible for failing to re-open cases of corruption against President Asif Ali Zardari. The government's legal battles intersect with unprecedented hostility with the army.
Leaders like Imran Khan have said they are firmly against the Zardari government, but also firmly against allowing a military coup. Mr Khan, whose rallies have been drawing huge audiences, has said that his party supports the Supreme Court. He has also accused Mr Gilani of trying to shield a corrupt President Zardari.
On Monday evening, an embattled Zardari government won a trust vote in Parliament, with its pro-democracy resolution being passed by a majority. Emboldened by this victory, its top leadership is now asserting that there is no question of the PM resigning or the government being sacked.
Here's the transcript of what Imran Khan told NDTV:
NDTV: You have every reason to smile today, don't you?
Imran: Uh, yes. Not just because my party is...
NDTV: on the ascendant, yeah
Imran:...and is now the number one party and has the biggest public support but because I think our democracy has evolved. And these entire crises, as you just mentioned in your opening remarks, what has come out is that the army is no longer prepared to come out in the open.
NDTV: The age of the coup is over in a sense.
Imran: The age of martial law is over.
NDTV: It's over, yeah.
Imran: ...because the memogate scandal is such a shameful scandal, that if ever the army would have intervened, it would have been then. Because, it's effectively a president asking the United States, to come and help him get rid of the Army hierarchy so that he could serve them better. That's in effect the memogate and normally, the army would have...that would have been enough to take over. I mean, as it is, there is public outrage against that and so you would've had the public backing. But, Pakistan has moved on and I think that the army realizes now that people are not going to accept military takeovers anymore. At the same time, the Supreme Court, I mean the Supreme Court has taken a stand. Finally, the Supreme Court, for the first time in Pakistan you're seeing the court taking on the powerful. Normally, the Supreme Court has been a part of the executive and taken orders from the government literally. First time, the Supreme Court is challenging the most powerful people in this country and challenging the corruption cases. And so, we have a vibrant media which is a third pillar and we have a very politically aware public.
NDTV: But, here is the catch in your argument. The catch is, the supporters of this government, the sympathizers of this government, and many liberal voices in Pakistan are saying that this is a test case for democracy, that an elected government should be allowed to complete its tenure, and why is the opposition pushing for an early election?
Imran: Well, it would....in normal circumstances I would agree. But now, what is this government trying to do? It's trying to demolish an independent Supreme Court. What is...are early elections going to destroy a democracy? Or if the independent judiciary is destroyed, would that destroy a democracy? Pakistan, as I said, has moved on. First time we've had an independent Supreme Court. Now, if this government takes on the Supreme Court just so, then it can protect Asif Zardari's corruption of billions of dollars. I'm afraid, that if you stand...if people stand by the judiciary and it wins, then our democracy wins. If our judiciary loses, our democracy loses.
NDTV: What do you say to those voices in your country who are suggesting that in some ways, the judiciary and the military in this country are on the same side in this debate?
Imran: I don't know if there is any indication of that but all I know is that the Supreme Court has been very lenient with this government. I mean this...the day the NRO was cut down, an NRO brokered by the Bush administration which Condoleezza Rice writes in her book, that she helped waive off all corruption cases of Benazir and 8000 people, corruption cases of over a trillion rupees, were waived off. Would they do that in their own countries?
NDTV: I want to ask you, there are those who say Imran Khan's been backed by the Pakistani army, I read this all the time in the Pakistani media.
Imran: Well, this is what all the politicians are petrified of. Because they don't know what's happened, how come this tsunami has suddenly built up? But if the army has now helped us, then surely it must be manipulating the Pew polls which are American opinion polls where Tehreek-e-Insaaf has been number one for now six months. YouGov polls in England; there we've been number one. All the polls which are conducted in Pakistan, we're the number one party now. So surely, they must be manipulating that. And then, a quarter of million people turn up in Lahore, and a quarter of a million in Karachi. General Musharraf, when he was the head of the ISI and the army, he couldn't pull a miniscule crowd compared to that. Forget the passion in the crowd, aren't they overestimating the army?
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