On 'The NDTV Dialogues', a look at the Political Churn in India's Capital. The Delhi elections may be dominating the news headlines, a glance at the most interesting trends that are emerging from the battle of this capital city.
Here is the full transcript:
NDTV: Good evening and welcome to The NDTV Dialogues, a show, which is the conversation of ideas. Tonight the Delhi elections maybe dominating the news headlines but we are actually going beyond. We are looking at the most interesting trends that are emerging from the battle of this capital city. The new order in politics, Kiran Bedi, a complete outsider from party politics, brought in by political strategist, Prime Minister Mr Modi and Amit Shah, the BJP party President, to be the BJP Chief Ministerial candidate. Another departure, Arvind Kejriwal and AAP, the quintessential outsiders, how will they fare in this election? They have already seen as the party to defeat. And Ajay Makan, again he's a judicial politician but he has emerged as Rahul Gandhi's choice in selection. There are no signs of earlier stalwarts like Sheila Dikshit, and again, he has already been projected as the Chief Ministerial candidate if the party comes in power. What do these strengths mean really for larger political trends? That's what we will be looking at tonight. Joining me for more, Dr SY Quraishi, former Chief Election Commissioner, now a keen political observer, Ashok Malik, journalist and political commentator. And politicians some would call them, new politicians, Gul Panag and Shazia Ilmi and also with me Sandeep Dikshit, former MP from Delhi. Thanks very much for coming in.
I used the word new politicians, not really to describe the fact that you are a recent entrant, but also to look at the fact that you represent the new type of candidate and your party represented a new kind of politics. But in this election we have seen everything is new in a sense. What do you think will be AAP's selling point, because really, when you come down it's not about fighting corruption any more, it's not about being an outsider, but it's back to promising cheap power? The discourse in a sense is like any other political party like Jaylalitha perhaps, in Tamil Nadu. What are the sops that we can offer?
Gul Panag: Well, for starters one would have to agree that it is a coming of age; it is learning the tricks of the trade albeit, may be a little slow. On the issue of what this election is about as far as the Aam Adami Party is concerned, I think it's an issue-based election. A issue based election where, as a result of long engagement with the polity for last two and half, three months, you must be aware the Aam Aadmi Party has been conducting Delhi Dialogues on various subjects similar to the NDTV Dialogues, and what has emerged has been a research and date led policy perspective on what Delhi needs, what we can do for Delhi and how we plan to do it, essentially research based. So I think that is the corner stone of Aam Adami Party's agenda for Delhi. With regard to power and electricity, of course it should be better. We have spoken about why the power companies, the discoms, why they haven't they been audited, why hasn't there been an audit of power company and the rate of their charging? And, with regard to water I think we'd have to agree that, I think anybody on this table, who will have hard time disagreeing the fact that we are well infested. We don't live in a junk and this is not a world with only the survival of the fittest. We need to provide equal opportunities and a fair chance for everybody to be able to succeed in life and if that means providing the basic amenities, than so be it. So yes, water is an important agenda, because without providing these key corner stones of quality of life, you can't expect equal opportunities. Education, health care, sanitation, water and of course wi-fi. Why not?
NDTV: Shazia, coming to this, because you have made this transition from AAP to an established political party, what do you see is the big difference? Is it that you can't beat them, join them, is it that you do have to compromise with certain issues, whether it is about how the party is funded, whether it is about looking at the winnability of the candidates. And that's really the big challenge, yet are you happy that somebody like you can be welcomed to the BJP? Are you happy that a complete outsider, Kiran Bedi, has been projected as the Chief Ministerial candidate? Do you think that establishes the fact that a new kind of politics and a new politician is acceptable today?
Shazia Ilmi: I think a new kind of politics within the BJP, some evangelization of sorts and new kind of dialogues emerging from there, whereas Aam Aadmi Party which chose to be different. We were founder members of the party, which actually was born of a movement, transformed very easily and repeatedly and I would not say transform but degenerated. Another party with the same criteria of winnability, where candidate selection was concerned, and same kind of politics where using caste equation, using communal equation, they have done exactly the same thing. So they transformed a cause to a cult about Arvind Kejriwal, actually violating every principle that they espoused earlier, whether it was Lokpal or swaraj or respecting volunteers, not having parachute candidates and disrespecting own cadres so to speak; whereas in the BJP I saw a more inclusive approach, a different kind of agenda since the Lok Sabha election. A new kind of system emerged as compared to BJP of yesterday.
NDTV: How is it new?
Shazia Ilmi: In terms of inclusiveness, in terms of what the Prime Minister stands for about good governance.
NDTV: You only have one Muslim candidate?
Shazia Ilmi: No. I am talking about Delhi per se. I am saying what BJP stands for, as a party under Narendra Modi ji's leadership. I saw a lot of difference in the BJP of today and I have been observing for past 8 months. Contrary to what one would have assumed, that it would be a party, which will be working on divisive lines, we saw Narendra Modi chalk out a new agenda. I am extremely impressed by Beti Bachao Beti Padhao Andolan. I am extremely happy with the invocation of Mahatma Gandhi, in fact for me that was a turning point.
NDTV: So you are saying that it is actually BJP, which is the new party. Now, Sandeep Dikshit, come in, because not only have you been a former MP but you have been an observer. Can I say you have been relegated as an observer someone who is defined as a politician? Perhaps Gul Panag and Shazia Ilmi would not be defined politicians. Do you feel that perhaps throwing the baby out with the bath water and saying there is no need of a politician who perhaps understands the inconsistency equations, what facilities this area wants, what is the caste equation, is there no need of that anymore in Delhi, which is the capital of this country? It may work in Haryana or Uttar Pradesh. Do you think Delhi has changed and politicians like you haven't kept up with this change?
Sandeep Dikshit: Talking about equations like caste and community, they never work in Delhi the way they work elsewhere. That's very clear. I have enrolled in Delhi for three, four elections and before this we were in Uttar Pradesh. And what we saw there was a complete contrast in to very 1st election when we came to Delhi. Subsequently it is a world of difference. Delhi doesn't respond, Delhi's communities and caste don't respond to caste attraction or community attraction the way they do elsewhere. So therefore aggressive change would be seen far more vividly and openly in Delhi than any other state.
NDTV: But Chhatt Puja we declared as a holiday.
Sandeep Dikshit: Despite all that, I am saying all the issues don't cut as much as in Delhi. In 2003, when Dikshit won the election for the first time, almost everybody said that it is sadak bijali pani, which started reverberating in India. Some started saying that Delhi shows how development would count. Then things changed and despite change, other issues came in. So Delhi doesn't respond. I would like to add one thing, which you didn't ask me and asked others. Outsiders coming is not a change, NT Rama Rao in Andhra Pradesh or it happened with AASU in Assam, so there have been cases where, under extraordinary circumstances and the current political system has not been able to satisfy people or give a picture in which people are attracted to them, but alternatives come up and some times people come who are completely new to politics or who have been kind of quasi to politics. There has been in and out. For example, Mr Kejriwal has never been completely out of politics. He has been in quasi-politics for a long period. Shazia has been in and out from politics. Gul Panag is new. She is one of my favourite actresses. It is my loss that she is going to AAP.
NDTV: But Kiran Bedi for instance, who was not seen in politics, and BJP did a big gamble.
Sandeep Dikshit: She was always in politics; her comments were always related to politics. Patriotism is always on her sleeves. There has always been a tinge of politics in here and politics is just not reserved for politicians. The simple thing is you come to politics amd you become one. Unfortunately I agree with what Shazia has said, Aam Aadmi Party is going just like some other party now. I was hoping it shouldn't have happened.
NDTV: I would come back to you, what a traditional politician, like you, feels on this whole issue. Dr Quraishi we want to know what people want? We keep talking that we want new kind of politics but it comes back to winnability and often we see, like even in Chandigarh, there was Kiran and Kher and an outsider. But it was a party, which had the cadre and booth worker, which had the money power, which would win, whether it is BJP, Congress or any established political party. Do you think in Delhi, where change can really happen, a party having fund raising lunches, which is counted for, do you think that's the more informativeness thing we keep talking about?
Dr Quraishi: I think AAP has bought a new kind of politics in Delhi and there were several reasons. Their fight for corruption, Lokpal Bill welcomed by people because there is wide spread corruption in the country and we all know about it. That's why they joined Anna Hazare and Aam Aadmi Party. Elections are a major reason of corruption. You spend crores in elections. Where does that money come from? You take it from mafia. You take it from corporates, that's why they don't want transparency. 80% sources are not known of. You complain to Election Commission. The source is not known. That's what we want to change but all political parties refuse to such kind of transparency. We want there should be an annual audit, every political party with an independent auditor; in-house do only a whitewash job. Audit report should be put on public domain so that people can see who were the donors.
NDTV: You don't support state funding of election?
Dr Quraishi: I don't support state funding of elections but I do support funding of political parties. Sounds paradoxical, but this is important to know the difference.
NDTV: Ashok Malik, not just Delhi, but what's at stake for all political parties, BJP, Congress and AAP?
Ashok Malik: If Congres loses two successive elections in Delhi and loses with huge differences then recovery is a big question mark. It would reduce itself as a 3rd player for the next 10 years. This election is unique because urban areas in Delhi are unique. Yes, people reach out for Muslim and Dalit votes in rural areas, but urban Delhi is potluck. You vote because you like voting for his party, not because he is Khatri or Muslim. Perhaps all India will become like this if we urbanise it, right now it is limited to Delhi and Chandigarh. 15 months back AAP got lot of votes, not it is left at a centred position. BJP is at a centre position. We are talking economically here.
Gul Panag: Then you should withdraw the Food Security Bill and MNREGA?
Dr Quraishi: I am not Mr Modi's spokesperson. It is a good thing that there are debates on such issues. Mr Modi is not withdrawing the Food Security Bill. Perhaps there is scope for a new political party.
NDTV: There is the BJP gamble. They have brought a completely outsider, somebody who is not in any sense associated with the Chief Ministerial post.
Dr Quraishi: It is huge gamble. If it works out it wipes out the entire generation of 50 to 60 BJP leaders who have been trying to get together. If it doesn't work it puts the BJP in deep trouble. Even Plan B would have failed. Again I think it is the reflection of the fact in Delhi, among young or middle class people, there is certain fatigue with traditional politics. AAP captured it in 2013. This time I am not sure. In 2014 there was BJP fatigue, there was not BJP fatigue. Getting Kiran Bedi is an approach to enlarge party. It may or may not work.
NDTV: I want to bring Gul Panag in here. Maybe Kiran Bedi is the kind of person you have voted for as young lady. As a progressive and role model, somebody who has got a career as an IPS officer, she is even from Chandigarh, Is it person versus party?
Gul Panag: Absolutely. Now when she is in BJP, she represents a certain collective leadership, she represents a certain culture, she represents a certain ideology and that crosses off my voter list if I was a Delhi voter.
NDTV: You have supported Narendra Modi in the past.
Gul Panag: I have clarified it on records and your channel should give me the opportunity to do that. The tweet was 'once you are burned in the fry pan might as well jump into the fire'; next tweet, name of PM. I rest my case. Now I have learned from that lesson and I number my tweet. There was no choice at that point of time. That tweet was from June 2012. There was essentially no alternative. AAP was born that time. There was the question of choosing between fire and fire pan.
NDTV: AAP has lost its USP. There have been candidates within AAP who have raised the question how AAP has lost its USP. There have been candidates who said they have come for money power or caste or community they are from. Even it is about winnability now. So how is AAP different in that sense?
Gul Panag: You have just said it yourself. This party actually has an internal Lokpal, a man of the repute of Admiral Ram Das. When there are charges brought against respective candidates they are dealt with. That's the difference, which you don't find elsewhere. I don't know what kind of Lokpal other parties have. We do have a Lokpal and we are cognizant of the fact that there could be people who come in through means that are less than pure. We do deal with it.
NDTV: So if BJP came and told you join us, you wouldn't?
Gul Panag: No. I won't.
Shazia Ilmi: There has been a case of duplicate receipt. There has been a case of refusal of audits of AAP is concerned. There were about 12 candidates from MCD local corporations, they were given AAP tickets and they failed really bad in last elections. Admiral Ram Das was side lined totally. There is something happening on 10th of Feb maybe.
NDTV: The outsider from AAP is now an insider.
Shazia Ilmi: The fact is I maybe an outsider but I am more of an insider than Gul is. Even in Congress if you take Ajay Maken, there has been a conscious effort to choose a candidate with a blemish-free record so to speak. So one thing Anna Hazare's movement has done, we can see, we can see the effect of it in all parties. They are projecting a good, strong, not corrupt candidate. If parties are gearing up to new kind of politics, to a changed perception, I think it is welcome change.
NDTV: Sandeep Dikshit, we keep talking about new politics but at least in your party how much has actually changed? We know Sheila Dikshit is not anywhere there. Can Congress also bring in a person like Kiran Bedi who is a complete outsider? You are not taking Sheila who was the USP for many years. Perhaps it is better to get somebody completely out of the system?
Sandeep Dikshit: There are different circumstances. What AAP and BJP are doing are different things. Like Gul said that they have a Lokpal, they can chuck anyone out. Let people grow in the party. Let people work there. Then we will see where the Lokpal and major issues go. A new party is like a new baby. Grandma says mera beta nikkama hai, mera beta acha hoga. Then Malik ji said that there is fatigue. Clearly is, with politics, with politicians, with traditional politics. Congress being the party in government at that time that got directed against the party. With regard to whether we should bring outsiders or not, people say great images don't belong to party. It also depends who is available, with who party is comfortable. There were people like Ajay Maken who we thought has experience as well as the image that can work with changing Delhi. Sometimes things just change. There are times when perceptions change, people just want a new deal.
NDTV: So how do you deal? How does someone like you who is 55 years old, compact things? People may not judge you by your work but see you as a neta.
Sandeep Dikshit: That's okay. They are the same people who voted for me two times. The party had perception problem that kind of affected....
NDTV: But you didn't want to contest? You didn't want to come back?
Sandeep Dikshit: No, that was because I am not involved in state politics as much as national politics. My daughter has her class 12th exam. I only have one child so that exam is much more important than any other political ambition.
NDTV: That's a new type of politics. I don't think there is any politician who would not fight elections for class 12th Board.
Dr Quraishi: Sonia you have been talking about winnabilty. I don't think there is a clear trend as of yet. On one hand very new faces are coming in like AAP. In 2004 we had 124 people in elections who were involved in criminal activities. It went up to 162 in 2009. It had gone up to 183 in recent times. The traditional winnability is still continued. In fact it is becoming stronger. Also we have richer; have much larger chance of winning. Which is a serious thing for Indian democracy.
NDTV: Gul Panag when AAP were coming normal, I'll ask others of the AAP impact on them, but the impact of other political parties, for instance would you contest an election again?
Gul Panag: I think it's too soon to say so. I've learnt from twitter to not say things that I'll have to first go and delete, so I am going to reserve judgment on that but...
NDTV: What's the big lesson you've learnt, for instance because you took on the other Kiran in a sense, which, what's the big lesson you learnt from the election? Because in an election you put your heart and soul into it absolutely, watching you on the campaign, what's the big lesson you learnt?
Gul Panag: The first lesson I learnt was that it was possible to come without a famous last name or belong to a big party and still fight the election. It is possible to raise funds transparently and still fight in the election. That's the first time around. That might not happen the second time if you lost an election, well lets find out. I am only going to have to find out, its easy to look at it cynically, oh she was a celebrity, she was famous or she was able to raise funds. But yes I was able to do that and most importantly I was able to learn by being in a party like this how everything in the election is run, I'll give you an example. When we were going to file our nomination papers, my cousins, my two best friends who were, are lawyers, they did nothing for a week but work on my nomination. I was afraid to write masters, my qualifications, because my degree hadn't come into hand. Now I wasn't part of a party where a machine that he prepares passes you off as a postgraduate or a graduate or something, when you are not even that. The point that I was making was fighting that election has taught me from raising finance to booth management to polling agents to nominations, to even how to organise food for my polling agents. This is something I would not have been able to learn had I been particularly part of a traditional party, because the system, the machinery is set up there. The schedule is made for you, you just turn up like a rock star and you go there, your nomination posters are sorted, your booth management system is sorted. I had to learn everything from scratch and yes, as and when and if I do fight an election, I am going to be much, much, much. Much, more experienced on these terms because I know how these things are done.
NDTV: But big difference and I think this has been raised by Shazia as well, was on election funding, Dr Quraishi touched on that in the beginning, that how he would propose perhaps state funding of Parliament but not state funding of elections. That's really the big differentiator between AAP and the BJP and Congress and all other political parties I would say, except perhaps the Left, that there Is no transparency on how its funded and that hasn't bothered you. I remember you said that you were broke. That you actually lost everything after you fought the elections
Shazia Ilmi: All my personal savings
NDTV: All your personal savings. After an election do you feel too idealistic to say look, we'll raise the funds somehow? That somebody like you or Gul Panag or X may have more of a chance, but say an unknown candidate from somewhere may not have a chance
Shazia Ilmi: See that was not, it was not because I was in AAP, it was because there was some step sisterly, motherly treatment being given out to me, but this was not the case with other AAP candidates, There are lot of stories dong the rounds that AAP is doing exactly the same thing to get tickets, so I am not too sure about that. There are duplicate receipts of the same name, we've just discovered and we'll come out with this, that there is one company, a bogus company, is giving, which doesn't exist, is giving cheques to a tune of 10 lakhs. Then we've also come to know, and I know it personally, that foreign passport holders were giving money to their relatives and the relatives were giving money to AAP. So there were different ways to raise funds. I am not too sure if AAP has had a squeaky clean system and I don't blame them, because the way it is you do need money, see all the hoardings in Delhi. 1 km radius you walk down in the last two months, every MCD hoarding, every NDMC hoarding, every private hoarding has had only Arvind Kejriwal. To assume that it cost only three crores as they are claiming would be stupidity.
Gul Panag: There is much more than that.
Shazia Ilmi: I don't blame them because this is where it has to change. It has to be realistic.
NDTV: How do you say it must change? How do you say it has to change, because AAP had lots of ideas, what would you say now in the BJP?
Shazia Ilmi: I would say that....
NDTV: No But how would you change?
Shazia Ilmi: By sweeping reforms; where whole funding is concerned I clearly believe the way we have seen Narendra Modi ji conduct himself running the cabinet, discipline coming in....
NDTV: But 60 crores for the rallies
Sahzia Ilmi: Wheeling, dealing has been out, no scams. I think this will make a difference, I think it will percolate down. He said it in the last speech that I think a small change is happening; the talk and it will come down
Gul Panag: Lets go back to the simplest of simplest facts. I am sure Mr Modi is personally, personally incorruptible. I have great faith in him as India's Prime Minister, but the issue still remains that BJP and Congress alike have dodged coming under RTI, one. As Sir has likely pointed out they have also managed to exploit the loopholes between the relations sort of....
Shazia Ilmi: But so has AAP
Gul Panag: Okay fine, but give me proof of that.
Shazia Ilmi: There is, there are duplicate receipts, there is a whole story, the same number and different donations. There is actually evidence of that.
Gul Panag: Let's compare when we say that 3/4th of the entire funding....
Shazia Ilmi: I agree BJP, Congress and other parties need to do a lot more.
NDTV: What is the one change you suggest could fix this? How would you like election funding to be done for a party like the BJP?
Shazia Ilmi: I really think people should be more transparent. To pretend that corporate funding does not exist and anybody could survive would just believe in a lie, because it's not possible. I think transparency the way elections are in the US. People, you are meant to give funds, you write them cheques for a certain denomination there is transparency, whether it be a corporate or a private individual should be allowed...
Gul Panag: BJP should take the lead on this then
Shazia Ilmi: Yes and I think a change is going to come and it will be through Narendra Modi and not Arvind Kejriwal .
Gul Panag: I'm sorry but I have to disagree on that
Sandeep Dikshit: I just wanted to make one point. This is, I am trying to pull myself back and look at it, I am a kind of observer, I think I am a little disappointed with the discussion, not with what they are defending, that's fair enough, but you started this whole thing by saying that perhaps there is a new form of funding coming in, there is ray of hope, there is fatigue with politics, there are new kinds of people. If ultimately you land up collecting money because you have to collect money in the same way in which others were collecting, you will have to do the same promises which they did twenty years ago, go back to the same state subsidised everything kind of a muft-khori kind of a campaign, then all this is replacing a hand by a jharu, replacing a man by Kejriwal, landing up back with the same kind of politics that you actually grew up accusing....
NDTV: Unless you get power how will you change it, unless Arvind Kejriwal is in power how will you change it?
Sandeep Dikshit: Like I said I am not blaming anybody
Gul Panag: Transparency; I am sure the Congress would like to declare their source of funds
Sandeep Dikshit: Fair enough, I am sire 5 years later, 10 years later, we will see, the actual answers will come after 5 to 10 years. All I am saying that within 6 months you decide to become another Indian National Congress to win the elections and then change the country, then I don't know
Gul Panag: I beg to differ. We are not trying to become the Indian National Congress to win the elections.
Sandeep Dikshit: I didn't object to you, it's just a comment. Mr Quraishi said very clearly that once you get funding in x manner, that x manner dominates your next five years. If you start getting funding in x, even in less, that x, whatever it is, will continue to dominate you for the next five years.
Gul Panag: But the public will know where the money is coming from
Sandeep Dikshit: So the hopes you are raising are perhaps not the hopes you are being voted for.
Gul Panag: But transparency is the operative word here and that is exactly what Sir said.
Dr Quraishi: Let me strike a balance. AAP model of fund collection is actually a good model. The fact that Shazia is able to pinpoint some irregularity that there are so many bogus voters, 2, 3 out of 20000 were foreign donors, but not NRI, but PIO's, the very fact that it was transparent and you were able to lay your hands on it.
Sandeep Dikshit: You can't make it that simplistic, it was not a matter of 5%. Not fair
Dr Quraishi: Even if it was not 5% and was 25% or 50% but the point was that as if you know nothing, it's all not transparent
Gul Panag: You are aware that PAN numbers were missing from the election account that Congress filed
Sandeep Dikshit: Fair enough
Gul Panag: How is that fair
Sandeep Dikshit: I am saying that we were completely clean. I am not saying other parties are the best
Shazia Ilmi: You show 250 rupees and you don't show 3 lakhs
Shazia Ilmi: I put up 6 posters for 15 days, only for 15 days. In fact 10 for the Vidhan Sabha Elections in Vasant Vihar and RK Puram area and it cost me something to the tune of 8 to 10 lakhs. So to say that all the posters in Delhi has cost 3 crores in the last two months and there are thousands of them is unbelievable and I don't blame AAP for it.
NDTV: But I agree with Gul Panag that lets have proof on the table before we can talk about that.
Gul Panag: I have a simple point and I think Dr Quraishi will agree on it, I think to make an essential level playing field and I think this is becoming more of a Shazia vs AAP, I hate to go into that direction. Coming back to how AAP is bad, I know you've just moved from AAP to BJP, allow me to remove that from the discourse for some time. The one big irony in election funding is that while candidate funding is regulated, party spending is not, which means it's not a level playing field. The moment it's not a level playing field the argument is lost. So which is the real defining needle here, and that is unless and until spending in an election is regulated, there is going to be no level playing field, because today, with social media, with print media, with electronic media, it's very difficult for the voter to distinguish where the candidates campaign ends and the party's start. So if you have front-page ads I am sure you can extrapolate the cost of how much BJP spent on every front-page ad and newspaper, every prime time ad on every news channel during the election. I think what was submitted was nowhere near reality, just pure extrapolation on some ad agency or media-buying agency and the numbers are completely off. So lets rise above trying to accuse each other's parties of what somebody has done wrong and think at a larger level as to how election funding has set the root of all corruptions. Ultimately it is about, that it is a vicious cycle, which exists. As the RBI Governor said, that between the corrupt politicians who need to pay patronage to their voters and to fight the election has to have a nexus with the businessmen, who in turn will be given favours and of course the voter is needed. There is this vicious cycle which needs to be broken and it could only be broken with the starting level could be to start regulating how much parties could spend.
NDTV: In fact perhaps the Lokpal, the campaign should be for election reforms, which Dr Quraishi has said. In fact you had been talking about that when you were the Chief Election Commissioner that my poor election reforms bill has been pending and Lokpal is suddenly on fast track. But the mood seems changed, Lokpal seems to be have forgotten in a sense
Gul Panag: I don't think it's forgotten.
NDTV: But let me, just on the last round of Dialogues tonight, are we looking at politics divorced from ideology? Are we seeing a much greater degree of ideological independence, of shifting, a churn, a shifting from party to party? So where there is a person like Kiran Bedi or whether perhaps Gul Panag or is it a person like x or a person like you, tomorrow you could join the Congress instead of the BJP, there is no more the traditional moorings, the traditional Congress voter, the traditional BJP voter has that changed. Sandeep, do you think that's the big change actually?
Sandeep Dikshit: That I don't know, actually because I am in that sense a traditionalist and you know I get very saddened when people say it's the death of ideology, it's the victory of capitalism; very clearly that they believe nothing else and hence they call it the death of ideology. I think that's very sad and I am very clearly in the old traditional way of the Left to centre, that is the only reason I remained in the Congress. That is the only reason the BJP and the AAP and the others can't attract me.
NDTV: But you have had many Congressmen shifting sides
Sandeep Dikshit: There are a lot of problems happening, some parties are particularly getting particularly mixed up, that's why I called it the victory of capitalism. Parties which would, if you take their core ideology, would take x y and z steps, start taking a, b c and start justifying them. Congress gets mixed up at times, BJP gets mixed up and if AAP ever gets a chance to govern, I don't know this time or next time, they'll probably get mixed up, it's not the death of ideology in that sense and that's also impacting individuals, individuals are now finding it easier to jump to areas where they find political success, I am not talking about you Shazia ji, I mean you are new to politics so you may have other reasons for changing, perhaps your mooring in a particular party, but in sense they jump more because of the attraction of the inability of a particular party rather than a core belief in their ideologies. This is, their belief. Parties have themselves become a little flexible in their ideologies. That's a mooring, which doesn't keep them as strong as possible. I will give you an example, a few years back I remember we had a tremendous debate on Hindu American relationships and I was speaking on behalf of Congress. The entire BJP stood up and very clearly said that the biggest mistake that Congress can ever do is to believe in United States of America. I don't know what happened in the last 3 days.
NDTV: Ashok Malik come in on this because this is true that the Krishna Tirath example is one of them. Amit Shah, the party President, campaigned against a lot of Congress leaders, I think Kashmir will be one example where Amit Shah campaigned against baap bete or baap beti sarkar and now it will with baap beti.
Ashok Malik: The fact is that no research is that you have to form a government. All parties tend to be opportunists. Somebody from Congress joins and becomes communal. BJP does it, Congress does it
Gul Panag: Opportunist is a bad word.
Ashok Malik: I am not saying it is a bad word or good word. It's a reality. I hope capitalism works. I was little astonished when Sandeep said that Congress is traditionally left and center. As somebody who waited for Congress a few years back and whose parents always voted for Congress. I think the Congress was at it's best the classical central party, with the mix of left of centre and right of centre. Somehow in the last 5 years Congress has lost it because it shifted to left centre in a very clumsy sort of a way. I think that is the mistake that Congress has made. What has happened now is that there is this new type of politics. You saw it in Lok Sabha elections too, again going back to UP where there were never people who voted for BJP, whose parents didn't vote BJP, but they voted for Modi. They may never vote for him again but they gave him a chance. They may try someone else tomorrow, maybe some iconic figure. The fact is that people are actually thinking out of the box. I know individual parties who have tried every political party. People are not thinking in straight or ideological manner. So I think that sort of transition is not a bad thing.
NDTV: Shazia,,vote and the politician post ideology when people call you opportunist how do you react ?
Shazia Ilmi: I really don't react because who was not an opportunist, its like Jesus Christ saying who is not a sinner? So I would say who is not an opportunist, tell me a politician who is not. If people are seeking for instance to call Kiran Bedi an opportunist, then everybody is seeking a better opportunity, politically for themselves during elections. So I think that's a bit unfair. There is, in certain ways the ideological lines are getting moved. You see the Left, Mamata Banerjee turned out to be more Leftist than the Left itself. Narendra Modi in his last speech spoke about Jhumri's becoming makans, the Congress' old slogan. So I don't see that happening, I feel that these lines of ideology do not meet as much as they did earlier, so this whole thing of secularism and communalism, Sanjay Nirupam, is with Shiv Sena, is secular, jumps into Congress becomes secular; Narayan Rane, when the NCP; Omar Abdullah is supposed to watch the Vajpayee Governmenet as the Minister of State for External Affairs, he is communal, but now he is fighting truth and nail with BJP. Then he is suddenly secular. So Ram Vilas Paswan, many more, so I don't believe that. I don't think its working
Ashok Malik: I think it is not fair to compare, I think India has also changed, post '91, between 2003 and 2011 we grew at an average of 8.3%, of course he would take credit for that, for his party, saying that we laid the foundations in the Vajpayee government. The fact is those days of growth has created aspirations which are going to completely change society and are changing our society so you are comparing yourself, when you don't get a job, tp your great grandfather, but your college senior or cousin who got a job three years ago.
Gul Panag: Age of instant gratification.
Ashok Malik: It's the age of expectations
NDTV: Or whichever party delivers
Gul Panag: It's, where we come from as well when we are in power and I am confident that we will be. The challenge will be to fix all that is said, ultimately the expectation cycle has become so smaller, you don't wait for 10 years for your life to get better, its an age of instant gratification, you want results now, so challenging times for whoever forms the government.
NDTV: And scary for any politician because the accountability is higher
Gul Panag: Because of the media, of the proliferation of the mobile technology, today an opinion doesn't stay in the far hinterland somewhere. It comes, it comes out on your face and is running as a ticker on your channel
NDTV: Dr Quraishi final thoughts of yours tonight, someone who has been seasoned in the system; been an observer, final thoughts.
Dr Quraishi: I had a debate on ideology and everyone thought ideology is dead and they refused to give any adjective to it but I would like to give one, I think it's a sad reality, everybody accepts it's a sad reality, 30 years ago when ayaram gayaram started people were contemptuous of the return counts, but nobody cares two hoots these days. They refuse to think it's a shock any more. It's a very typical Indian phenomenon because if I want to vote for any party under the sun they are all the same and they give funny examples when they change the party. It is most amusing. Even if you lose two elections it doesn't matter. They need to rethink
NDTV: it was wonderful to have you all on The Dialogues this evening. The Delhi results are to be watched closely, till then not just Delhi; thank you all very much for sparing the time to come.