New Delhi:
Microsoft Corporation chairman Bill Gates, who was in India recently, spoke to NDTV's Vikram Chandra on the India story, his similarity with Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg and what makes him happy.
Here is the complete transcript of his interview:Vikram Chandra: Hello and welcome. We have an extremely special guest with us. William Gates, or Bill Gates as he's much better known, is here in India again. And it's a great pleasure to meet you once again. What brings you to India this time?
Bill Gates: It's a great opportunity to meet with our partners here in India. India has, of course, celebrated more than a year without polio. India's got a real push-on to add some new vaccines, to raise vaccine coverage. The government has committed more of the budget to health, which is very important that they do that. Very appropriate that they help out those in need. I got a chance to go to Uttar Pradesh and meet the new chief minister there, spend time with ministers, including minister of health, who we're doing a lot with.
Vikram Chandra: Let's just start with polio because I know that's really close to your heart. It's been a year now since no polio case has been found. It's still too early to say polio's been eradicated, right? I think that needs two years.
Bill Gates: We're not really done until polio is eliminated from the entire globe. And we have two countries in Asia, Pakistan and Afghanistan, that still have polio. Polio experts from Pakistan came to New Delhi today and had a chance to meet with me and tell me some very impressive new things they're going to be doing. (They) Sat down and talked with their Indian counterparts about what worked well here in India. So it is fantastic to see that there's country-to-country learning taking place. We also have some polio still in Africa, particularly in Nigeria. But with any luck, in the next two-three or maybe four years, this thing will be completely over.
Vikram Chandra: It's quite interesting that they came from Pakistan to meet you here, to take advantage of your visit here. If India can get close to (eradicating) it with 1.3 billion people, Pakistan should be able to (do it) in a short while.
Bill Gates: They've had some big challenges; they've had floods, areas of unrest. Each country has had unique challenges. But yes, India's success showed that it's possible. It energised the whole campaign and it was a major contribution to the world effort.
Vikram Chandra: (On) Your meeting with the Uttar Pradesh chief minister. He's a young, new guy with new ideas. How was your meeting with him and what did you tell him or vice versa?
Bill Gates: I was glad to hear he has a real priority in health area. We talked about immunisation rates in UP, which are particularly low. He has ambitious goals to change that around. Talked about reproductive health, where we have a project up in UP. It's been making progress in giving women the tools they want to use. You'll see us do more, now that the government has made it much more of a priority to execute well in (the) health area.
Vikram Chandra: The fact that health in UP and some other norms in UP are lower than the national average, actually brings down the national average and given how large UP is, it's a very significant challenge to the world as well. Are you confident things will get done there in that state now?
Bill Gates: I think we have the example of Bihar where a very enlightened chief minister made health a real priority. I was just on the phone talking with him about the joint projects we have going on there. They improved almost all statistics, including non-health areas, like crime. They were able to make big progress. So I think now that Bihar has shown it can be done, that creates some sense of possibility. If we get those two states competing in excellence, maybe they will pass the India average at some point. That will be a real dream.
Vikram Chandra: Because Bihar was worse off than Uttar Pradesh, you do think there's an actual change on the ground. Sometimes there are skeptics who say the media makes a big song and dance about it. Are things really improving on the ground?
Bill Gates: Absolutely. In Bihar, vaccination rates are up to 72 per cent. They were somewhere in the range of 30 per cent, lowest in the entire world four years ago. By a huge number of measures, lives are being saved; children are healthy enough that their brains develop properly. Bihar story is a real story. It's tracked with data; I'm a very data driven person. Everything we get involved with, we're really going to measure if we're getting the impact that we expect.
Vikram Chandra: Is that an important part in India that increasingly states are taking the lead? There's a certain sense of central paralysis, which I talked to you about. But states are taking the lead and have the ability to take the lead in areas like health and sanitation and other things like that.
Bill Gates: I think the positive competition between states in India is one of the most positive dynamics that the country has. In many respects, the south got ahead on different things. They used innovative practices to do those things. Now other states are taking those things up. So the average is moving up for the country. The national government is very important, at least in the health area. They've been an excellent partner, rolling out a new vaccine; plan to roll out other new vaccines. But when you really want to get things done on the ground, you've got to go to the state level, or to some degree, the district level and below that.
Vikram Chandra: And that's where things get done. You met Jairam Ramesh, one of the major items you spoke to him about was sanitation. A lot of your focus so far has been vaccination. Is sanitation becoming a big thrust, especially, after what's happened in countries like Rwanda?
Bill Gates: We've had a meaningful sanitation programme. And it's got two elements. One is going out to communities and convincing them to change and get rid of open defecation, put a lot of social marketing in, make sure there are good facilities for them to use. Another is more technology driven. How can you make a community toilet or even an individual toilet that's as good as a flush toilet but far less expensive because the world is not going to be able to provide flush toilets to everyone in the world.
Vikram Chandra: I believe 58 per cent of all people, who practice open defecation, are in India. 58 per cent. That's rather worrying and must be one of the big challenges India is facing now.
Bill Gates: It's an unfortunate fact both in terms of quality of life and the disease that gets spread because of that. But you've got to provide good facilities; those facilities have to be cleaned out in a way that's reasonable to expect people to go there. The science of it, even the emptying trunks and how it is done, it's amazing how little has been invested in it. It's an area where our foundation is the biggest spender because of that lack of focus.
Vikram Chandra: We are talking about open defecation, that's actually a large majority of what happens in our railways.
Bill Gates: The minister brought that up and I said we will develop a joint project to see what can be done. That really should be solvable. On a train, you've got heavy use, you have power. I've committed to him that we've got experts who will work with him on the railways on how to fix it.
Vikram Chandra: One of the statistics we keep coming across is that one of the largest contributors to drop-outs in India for girls is because there are no adequate toilets for them. I'm sure that's something that has come to your attention as well.
Bill Gates: Absolutely. We see that worldwide. They want privacy, whether it's normal toilet use or they're having their periods. They expect to have some privacy. We all want girls to get as much education as boys, so we should remove those barriers. I bet there are other things like quality of teachers that's also important, but putting toilets in is pretty basic.
Vikram Chandra: You were talking about central government's role being extremely important. (From) Reading a lot of the press on India, and that there seems to be a paralysis, a lack of interest - the India story is over. I just wonder what's your take on all of that?
Bill Gates: India's managed to have quite a few good years in terms of economic growth. Everybody is always looking for the next wave of reform that's going to increase competition in the country. I certainly watched the health budget and the plan to raise that to 2.5 per cent of GDP, that's very valuable, very appropriate that the country make health a priority. It can have a huge impact for people. India story is a fairly positive story. India is one of the many countries right now where path of economy is quite uncertain. Europe -- it's quite uncertain. The US -- assuming everybody else does well, is probably moving up. But I don't think there's any economy that's got a guaranteed five-year growth ahead of it.
Vikram Chandra: So when you speak to your counterparts, when you're hearing discussions on India, three years ago it was perhaps irrational exuberance, irrational hype. Everyone said this is it, 30 years of 9 per cent growth. Now are you hearing people say that we've written off India or it's not to that stage yet?
Bill Gates: The 9 per cent growth that China achieved for long periods of time, the amount of reform in terms of real estate, labour, electricity, getting rid of bottlenecks that you'd have to do to have continuous 9 per cent growth... It wasn't likely (that) India was going to take on that much reform all at once. On the other hand, because of the great human talent here, assuming world conditions were conducive, 5-6 per cent growth made sense. I am a fan of more reform, which would push you up in 7-8 range. India story is still a positive story. The talent here, the fact that it's getting more educated...health indicators are going up. It's just willingness to change, to open-up to new competition. In a few cases, there has been disappointment. It's announced something might happen in retail and then it doesn't happen. People were hoping to see more of those changes.
Vikram Chandra: That's a message a lot of people have been bringing here. And that's something you will no doubt be communicating in your meetings with leaders here. I'm sure you're continuing to keep more than half an eye on Microsoft. The launch of Windows 8 must be a big event later this year?
Bill Gates: For Microsoft, that's as important a product as it's ever come out with. There will be a lot of innovative hardware, lot of innovative software as that enters the market.
Vikram Chandra: You must've been keeping an eye on what's happening in the social media. And Facebook in particular. Has Mark Zuckerberg called you for advice yet?
Bill Gates: Mark Zuckerberg's been great at reaching out to a lot of people including myself about what we might be able to say. Mark's in a unique situation. We have a few things in common. We both dropped out of Harvard. I gave a lecture in Harvard where I talked about.. 'hey if you've got a great idea, don't worry about dropping out'. He attended that lecture, so it's a funny connection there. Facebook is doing very well.
Vikram Chandra: By the way, on this whole dropping out of college, there are a lot of children including mine, who at the age of 9 say if Bill Gates can drop out of college, why can't I? Is there any message that you want to give to kids like that?
Bill Gates: I'm a student to this day. I love watching courses online, love reading textbooks. So if I'm a proponent of anything, it's to invest in your education. Some of that come in a self-taught informal way, but I'm very glad I went to college. I only stayed three years, but in terms of growing up, meeting other smart people, meeting Steve Ballmer, who I later hired to help build Microsoft. I would counsel people to go to college, because it's one of the best times in your life in terms of who you meet and develop a broad set of intellectual skills.
Vikram Chandra: Actually what you just said about continuing to learn and new ways of learning. That's a trend I'm starting to see. You can sit wherever you are and tap into lectures from Stanford or Oxford or wherever you want to. Nothing to do with what you're actually studying. Do you see education changing forever with trends like this?
Bill Gates: Well, certainly education for the individual. The fact that you can look up articles in Wikipedia. You can refresh yourself in Math, statistics and science, that you can get these university lectures that are free and now people like ..... are putting more interactive elements into this. Education is changing, now to get schools to connect to that and using it to motivate kids, who aren't naturally motivated to learn -- that's going to take some effort. That's another area our foundation is working in. It'll be of such benefit if we can do it. Because education prepares everything that counts in society.
Vikram Chandra: But that's where you'll start getting a disconnect. Because you'll see a lot of kids, who'll be sitting and educating themselves in these strange new manners, on various levels of digital divide. You'll see that in internet cafes in reasonably poor areas. And yet when you're evaluated to get into a college or university, it's your marks that are going to count. I know it's a constant dilemma that parents are going to face here in India.
Bill Gates: Well an employer is going to be rational. If you've found some way to educate yourself about engineering, stocks, or whatever it is, good employers will have some type of exam or interview and see a sample of your work. Formal degrees are often used. As we get more and more online, we'll be able to test knowledge that's more matched to the job and less dependent on an abstract degree.
Vikram Chandra: Do you see the digital divide continuing too - is it going to be bridged or not? Here in India there's been a lot of talk about really cheap tablets that's going to take computing and options and opportunities of Internet right down to the grassroot level. Do you see that happening or is that still going to be a dream?
Bill Gates: The real cost is the cost of connectivity. Last thing you want is to have a very limited device. You're going to have to pay for the internet to have that connection and to be able to type and create documents. There certainly will be a divide. The way societies can deal with that is to have libraries or community centers, where kids can drop in and have not a crummy computer, but a real computer to use. When I think of injustice in the world, the health divide strikes me as most unjust. If I am sick as a kid, even if I live, my brain will be damaged, it won't develop. I can never really achieve my potential so the big injustice by far is the health divide. If your brain develops, go to the library, you'll find what you need. But if at a young age, health blocks that, then it's finished for your whole life.
Vikram Chandra: So first deal with health divide, then worry about education divide.
Bill Gates: Hopefully a little bit parallel. But top goal of our foundation is definitely the health area.
Vikram Chandra: We've been asking viewers to write in with questions for you. We've had a fantastic response. I'm going to throw some at you. Some are very interesting. Karunakar says do you see yourself as a successful human being and if so, why?
Bill Gates: I feel very lucky about where I was born, the parents I had, to have the education I had and I'm trying to live up to the good luck that represents by giving both my skills and my resources. I consider myself quite successful. I owe this system quite a contribution for what it's done for me.
Vikram Chandra: I'd be quite surprised if you didn't consider yourself successful.
Bill Gates: Yeah, that would be quite a pessimistic view.
Vikram Chandra: Somebody else asked are you happy and what makes you happiest?
Bill Gates: I'm very happy. I'm very lucky that I get to work on exactly the things I want to, work with brilliant people on interesting..... malaria, tuberculosis. I'm always learning. I'm always seeing the progress we're making. That's why I love to come to India because there is so much progress. I've got a great family, kids are growing up well. The tools I can use to be curious, the people I can meet. I can't imagine changing places with anyone.
Vikram Chandra: One final question from people out there. Shantanu says, and I wonder whether you've ever had this measured, what is your IQ?
Bill Gates: When I was very young, I took some tests and did well. I'm very good at tests. It's a kind of strange thing. Quite a variety of tests. When it comes to funny IQ type questions, I'm good at those.
Vikram Chandra: You love them.
Bill Gates: Oh yeah.
Vikram Chandra: If I could just add to that. You're one of the most successful people I've come across. As advice to someone growing up now, once you've done the basics, you're healthy, you're educated, what do you think is going to take, to make someone successful in the 21st century.
Bill Gates: You have to enjoy learning, you have to pick a field that really excites you. Whether it's medicine, engineering or fashion. It might be that you find yourself reading about it in your spare time and thinking about it and really being very broad in that area. It's ideal if you can work in an area that fascinates you and throughout your career you feel you are understanding, coming up with new ideas. What's amazing is, if young people understood how doing well in school makes the rest of their life so much interesting, they would be more motivated. It's so far away in time that they can't appreciate what it means for their whole life.
Vikram Chandra: Now with the exposure that people have, you can do a little bit of photography, little bit of everything and some people think we're going to end up as a race of dilettantes?
Bill Gates: It's critical that you pick a few things that you really do in depth. You can't just do a little bit of everything. If you're going to get paid to do other work. If you're really going to contribute, pick a few things and go super deep. Now you can have tools of economics and mathematics and lessons from history that help you understand your area, but you've got to be deep on something. That's more and more important even on health. Nobody's an expert on everything.
Vikram Chandra: Now you're going to head-off for another set of meetings -- lots and lots of conversations with people who run policy in the country. What's essentially the message you're going to be giving them now?
Bill Gates: I'm very upbeat about progress. I'm there to talk about how our foundation can help achieve some of these goals in a very modest way. India is on a good track, there's a lot of decisions to be made. Even in the States, where things have been the toughest, there are great signs of progress. Helping to accelerate, that is what I'll try and do.
Vikram Chandra: It's always a pleasure to talk to you about health, education, philosophy, meaning of life. Always a pleasure. Thank you.
Bill Gates: Thank you.