Chidambaram speaks exclusively to Barkha Dutt

In an exclusive interview to NDTV's Barkha Dutt on the programme The Buck Stops Here, Home Minister P Chidambaram talks on a range of issues. Full transcript of the interview:

On Pakistan, Hafiz Saeed, and US visit:

Barkha: Mr Chidambaram you are heading to the US, many believe this is on the 26/11 trail, what's the focus of your visit to Washington?

Chidambaram: 26/11 is just one item on the agenda. The focus is to find ways on working together on counter terrorism, sharing intelligence and generally making an assessment of the security situation in South Asia.

Barkha: Hasn't there been that kind of cooperation happening through 26/11 investigations in any case?

Chidambaram: It has. There have been several visitors from the US. The DNI, the NSA, there was Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice coming few days after 26/11. Actually she came here on December 3. There was Secretary Clinton on July 20. Our NSA visited the US. But this I am told is the first Cabinet-level visit after the Obama administration has taken over and certainly after the new government here has taken over.

Barkha: You speak about 26/11 as one part of your trip, but there is sometimes perception among ordinary Indians who are soon going to watch one year since 26/11 took place, that Washington has not intervened with Pakistan as strongly as it could. Is that your sense as well, is that something you'll be raising in your meeting with Secretary Clinton?

Chidambaram: Well, I am not going to lecture them on anything. The point is that US did assure us that they will use moral persuasion to make sure that Pakistan punishes the perpetrators of the Mumbai terror attacks.

Barkha: But do you believe that has happened. That has still not happened?

Chidambaram: Well they have tried. Whether they should try harder is a matter we should discuss. I agree it hasn't happened. Both S M Krishna and I have made this point that Pakistan has not yet taken any serious meaningful step towards apprehending and prosecuting and punishing the brains behind the Mumbai attack.

Barkha: So, when you talk about the moral persuasion US could have employed, clearly it hasn't got very far or Washington hasn't tried very hard?

Chidambaram: Well that's a judgement.

Barkha: What's your judgement?

Chidambaram: Well, I don't know. I will have to wait and talk to them. I think they have tried. There has been both progress...and halting progress let's say. I think they have tried.

Barkha: When Hillary Clinton was here and when we asked her about Hafiz Saeed, at that point the Pakistan government had actually appealed against the court order which said that he need not be arrested. But since then as you have said yourself several times that nothing has moved on the arrest of Hafiz Saeed. Now is that some thing you will raise with Washington that Washington need to weigh upon Islamabad that it has to act against Hafiz Saeed?

Chidmabaram: Well if there is an opportunity I will take them through the dossier. It has already been shared with many countries.

Barkha: 16 countries I think.

Chidmabaram: Yes, including US so they know what we have. If there is an opportunity I will take them through the dossier to point out that there is enough evidence to continue the case against Hafiz Saeed. In the face of this evidence to let him off, I think is atrocious.

Barkha: And that is something you will communicate to Washington?

Chidmabaram: Well it has been communicated but I am sure there will be an opportunity to discuss that.

Barkha: You say there is enough evidence in the sixth dossier. What is the nature of the evidence against Hafiz Saeed?

Chidmabaram: Well I am not going to read the dossier to you. I will highlight some things. Firstly we know when Kasab first met Hafiz and where. We know what Hafiz Saeed told the trainees. We know at least a couple of places where the training took place. And that Hafiz Saeed visited these camps. We know that it was Hafiz Saeed who gave names to buddy pairs. The final farewell call was made by Hafiz and Hafiz Saeed even tested Kasab and others on their training achievements.

Barkha: When you say he tested them you mean he ran them through some kind of drill?

Chidmabaram: Well he asked them to fire some targets. We know that the final instructions were given by Hafiz Saeed. So all these things are known like places, approximate dates, names, visits made by Hafiz Saeed. Now in the face of these evidence how does the prosecutor say that I have no leads to continue the investigation.

Barkha: And when Islamabad say that even this evidence is inadequate. They have more questions they say.

Chidmabaram: Well if they want to invent questions they are welcome to do so. But I think that they have come to the end of the road. They can not invent more questions. We have answered all their questions in the successive dossiers. It is now time to take these leads and do a proper traditional well known investigation. Arrest the person, take him to these places, ask the person questions. I mean just the ground work of investigation which any inspector will know to do.

Barkha: Can you share some more details when you say that actually Hafiz Saeed asked Kasab to fire at the targets and that he was part of the last training? Can you share some more details?

Chidmabaram: Well, we know that he was accompanied by a person who was described as major general sahab. Hafiz Saeed told a person to set up 10 targets and he asked each of the selected terrorist to fire at the targets. We know that Kasab fired target number four. Now is this not enough detail to take up the investigations?

Barkha: You referred Hafiz Saeed being accompanied by a major general sahab. Is it the assessment of the home ministry that it is the serving Pakistani army officer?

Chidmabaram: We don't know.

Barkha: It could be.

Chidmabaram: It could be serving. It could be retired.

Barkha: But definitely an army officer? or is it just a name, a nick name?

Chidmabaram: Well very unlikely. He should have been a major general at some time.

Barkha: But doesn't that concern you more because that is then directly finding some kind of link to some one at some point in time according to you a part of Pakistani army?

Chidmabaram: Well, that can only be revealed by the investigation. We have never ruled out state actors although Pakistan has always maintained that there are only non state actors involved. We have never ruled out state actors and we have never accepted this distinction between state actors and non state actors as both operate from Pakistan soil.

Barkha: If you are not ruling out the involvement of state actors and you have gone on record saying that Pakistani government is deliberately stifling the probe. Is it your assessment that the state of Pakistan is somewhere involved in covering up for 26/11?

Chidmabaram: No, no. Covering up is a strong word... there is for some strange reasons an unwillingness to take the investigations forward. What they told the common friendly countries. What they have told the Prime Minister is that they will spare no effort to prosecute and punish the perpetrators. In the light of that letting off Hafeez is unacceptable and I don't know who else is involved. There is a major general sahab for example. So unless there is a proper investigation I am not in a position to say that Pakistan intends to keep its promise. Why they are unwilling to take the investigation forward I can't say.

Barkha: Is there any information available with state intelligence agency that there could be any involvement of state actors in 26/11 and thereafter?

Chidmabaram: Investigations will establish whether the state actors were involved or not but I am not ruling out the possibility.

Barkha: Now when you say that at this stage Pakistan is merely inventing new questions as you have supplied them enough evidence. Can we take it to mean that there will not be more dossiers? Sixth dossier was the last dossier?

Chidmabaram: How can I say that. If they do invent more questions.

Barkha: You will continue to answer them?

Chidmabaram: I will answer them with growing sense of frustration. I still have to answer them. Shouldn't I?

Barkha: Well some would say that if the home minister has decided that there no more questions to answer them then why continue with the whole process of multiple dossier.

Chidmabaram: I know it is a charade.

Barkha: You acknowledge it is a charade?

Chidmabaram: After a point it is a charade. But I don't want to give them any quarter to say that answers are not forthcoming therefore we are not investigating.

Barkha: What's the response from then since you have given them this dossier?

Chidambaram: I am not in touch with them personally.

Barkha: With the government?

Chidambaram: I have seen statements on TV and in the media that they are assessing the 6th dossier. It's only 6, 7 pages.

Barkha: So when you carry the dossier with you to Washington?

Chidambaram: Well I am not carrying the dossier, the dossier has already been shared with many countries.

Barkha: But you will be bringing up the detailed evidence that you have against Hafiz Saeed in your talks with Secretary Clinton?

Chidambaram: Well I don't know whether it's necessary to raise it with Secretary Clinton but with the American side our delegation will point to the evidence... what I just now told you, and say place it before any independent prosecutor, would he say this evidence is not sufficient to continue investigation against Hafiz Saeed. All I am saying is take investigation further from the point where I have given you the leads. Continue investigation, interrogate Hafiz Saeed. These are the words which any prosecutor, any police inspector understands.

Barkha: You say you have been totally dissatisfied with Pakistan's response so far. But isn't it true that the Sharm-al-Sheikh joint statement was born of the fact that Pakistan's response at that point seemed to suggest that they had finally acknowledged the role of the Lashkar in 26/11 attacks and at that point the response seemed more promising?

Chidambaram: Well that statement has been interpreted as well as misinterpreted. The PM has clarified it, there is nothing I need to add to that clarification.

Barkha: Most people would say that statement doesn't make sense in the light of your statements that you are totally dissatisfied with how Islamabad has responded?

Chidambaram: I don't think so. I think the PM made an effort to assure Pakistan that there will be a dialogue, when and in what manner will be decided later. But he also exhorted Pakistan that Pakistan should not link investigations into the 26/11 attacks with the dialogue. That investigation should proceed independently, I mean on an independent track. And that's the only interpretation which I think is correct.

Barkha: One of the statements that we have seen from the Indian Army chief General Deepak Kapoor is not only telling about ceasefire violations along LoC, but also unusually suggested that India's patience is being tested and if this went on, the army could hit back. He said 'jawaabi karwai' in Hindi. Isn't this unusually aggressive?

Chidambaram: I don't wish to comment on any statement by Army chief. I need to know the context. I need to know the exact words that he used. The point is, in the months of May and July, there has been an increase in infiltration. The number of militant actions in J&K have sharply come down in 2009. But infiltration has indeed increased in these two months. That's a fact!

Barkha: But, is that something also that will be brought up on your visit to Washington?

Chidambaram: We are not going to discuss only Indian and Pakistan. I believe we are going to discuss the security situation in South Asia; Pakistan of course will figure (in talks).

Barkha: What's the assessment of these ceasefire violations that seem to have returned after a lull?

Chidambaram: Well I don't know if there have been any ceasefire violations.

Barkha: That's what the Army chief says.

Chidambaram: Yes, if he says that he must have reasons to say that. I know there has been rise in infiltration in two months in the last four months.

Barkha: Army has also spoken of incursions on the Chinese side, is that something that your ministry is assessing?

Chidambaram: Technically, it's the Defence Ministry. Yes, we know there have been some instances, but I think we should not overplay them. That could be simply because of navigation errors. So, I think we should not overplay that because the two special representatives are talking to each other. And I think they have mutually assured each other that they will maintain the status quo and they will maintain peace on the Indo-China border even while the talks go on.

Barkha: You have spoken about the decline in militant violence in J&K. You have said in interviews including with us that you believe that it's the time to review the application of the armed forces special powers act (AFSPA). Yet we have seen no movement on that at all?

Chidambaram: You haven't seen any because it hasn't come to the Parliament yet. It will.

Barkha: So what's the proposal?

Chidambaram: We are proposing some amendments to AFSPA.

Barkha: In the next session of Parliament?

Chidambaram: I hope so.

Barkha: That would be an important gesture of political goodwill. Would that not be?

Chidambaram: It will be. AFSPA is not meant to be a law that will apply permanently to every part of every disturbed area. This is intended to be an interventionist law. And therefore we are proposing amendments to that law, which serves the purpose while at the same time, it allays apprehensions that it's likely to be misused.

Barkha: There are also apprehensions that back channels have been opened with separatist leaders in J&K, who haven't been on the radar for a while now since this election was concluded with Hurriyat Conference. Is that something the government is trying to do, open some dialogue with them?

Chidambaram: I don't recall asking you to talk to anyone.

Barkha: I don't know if I would be the right person to conduct back channel dialogue but more seriously, is this something you would like to happen?

Chidambaram: What I said in Sringara was, in course of time, we would have to begin a dialogue with various groups in J&K.

Barkha: Is that something that has begun, the ground work on back channels?
Chidambaram: Well I don't think you can characterise it as a beginning yet. I am thinking about it.

Barkha: The ground work has been prepared?

Chidambaram: I am thinking about it.

On YSR's tragic death:

Barkha: Want to talk about the overall security situation. Will start with Andhra Chief Minister's death. Many people would suggest on this one crucial point of information dissemination, there continue to be some confusion, conflicting reports coming whether the CM was safe or not till you took charge and started monitoring the whole situation, why was there such confusion on information dissemination?

Chidambaram: You had very adventurous and rash reporters. By you I mean the media.

Barkha: But can you blame it totally on the media?

Chidambaram: I can give you the names of the correspondents who were putting out stories from Hyderabad, from Kurnool, which had no basis whatsoever. Yes I agree there have been one or two slip-ups, people feeding in wrong information, but when I spoke to the channels and said I will not tell you a lie, rely on the information that we are giving you. But even when I was talking to the channels, they were putting out info to the contrary. Now fine, if you want to deal with it as an unfolding drama, do so, but then at the cost of your credibility.

Barkha: Fair enough. But you do know there were sections of government - local and central - official people that were telling these reporters. May be they were naive to believe them, that the chief minister was safe.

Chidambaram: Well I know one government official giving out a piece of information, which he regretted later, which when asked where he got it from, he said he got it from a TV channel - a local TV channel. We told them local TV channels cannot be the source of government information.

Barkha: But does it concern you?

Chidambaram: It does.

Barkha: But does it concern you in the sense that one central aspect of crisis management has to be no multiple leaks?

Chidambaram: Correct but I can't stop enterprising journalists from inventing news.

Barkha: ... and enterprising officials from accelerating the pace of leak?

Chidambaram: One official. But as far as the ministry of Home Affairs is concerned I was giving out the correct information to whosoever spoke to me and said rely only on my info.

Barkha: From the security point of view, questions being raised why wasn't there a satellite phone on board. Is that a lesson to be learnt from this tragic death?

Chidambaram: Well these are helicopters owned by the states. There are helicopters which are hired from private companies, agencies. I don't think there's a rule which requires satellite phones to be placed on helicopters.

Barkha: But should there be?

Chidambaram: Perhaps there should be. Yes. But I think the more fundamental question is and I am sorry my good friend Rajshekhar is no more, I am deeply grieved by that loss. The fundamental issue is don't fly in the face of death. You have to accept the pilot's assessment of the weather conditions en route and not fly. I am not saying in this case he did. I don't know.

Barkha: Is that a preliminary assessment?

Chidambaram: We don't know, everybody on board is dead. But as a general rule, one must leave it for the pilot to decide whether it's safe to fly. Fundamentally, a helicopter is a very small aircraft, in bad weather, it's virtually a toy, however sophisticated the helicopter may be.

Barkha: Which is why many people are asking why did the helicopter fly when it was known there was a bad weather?

Chidambaram: When I am told when they took off from Begumpet, there was no rain, not even a drizzle. Apparently they encountered rain on the way and by the time they came near Kurnool, the weather had turned very bad. That was the time they should have turned back and gone to Kurnool. Kurnool has a helipad, they could have landed there.

Barkha: Taking away from the tragedy there is an SMS that is being mass circulated in Mumbai. Talking about the extensive use of resources from commandos, Sukhoi's to every resource that you had, that your ministry did not spare in trying to hunt down the Chief Minister.

Chidambaram: Is that wrong?

Barkha: Absolutely not. I am just sharing an anecdotal story with you since I got the SMS as well. Why didn't we see this response during 26/11? Why not this state of urgency? People are really asking what have we learnt since then.

Chidambaram: How can I answer questions related to 26/11.

Barkha: You weren't Home Minister.

Chidambaram: I can only answer for what my ministry does after 1/12 but I agree that in a crisis someone must take charge and someone must take the final decisions about what should be done and what should not be done. And every resource that is available to the government must be deployed to diffuse the crisis. That applies if it a helicopter missing, a terror attack, an earthquake, or a flood or whatever. Crisis management requires quick and hard decisions.

Barkha: Talking about 26/11 and since the time you took over as home minister it must be a matter of great satisfaction that we have not seen a major terror strike since 26/11?

Chidambaram: Please...don't speak too quickly. It is satisfactory that there has been no terror attack but it does not mean that there won't be a terror attack. We have to remain vigilant. I have said this at more than one occasion. And it is possible that someone could just slip through the cracks.

Barkha: Is it a daily battle that the ministry fights that the people don't get to see?

Chidambaram: It is.

Barkha: And in a sense people don't know the things that you are grappling with?

Chidmabaram: You don't know a fraction of it.

Barkha: So the vulnerability levels remain as high as ever?

Chidambaram: The vulnerability levels remain as high as ever but our levels of preparedness to meet a challenge is getting better over the months.

On NSG hubs:

Barkha: You created the NSG hubs. People say that these were long overdue but there are serious questions being asked about where will men come from?

Chidambaram: Men are already there.

Barkha: No given that Army has a short fall of 11000 officers do you have as many people as you need?

Chidambaram: Army has given me officers I wanted.

Barkha: Despite their own short fall?

Chidambaram: Don't know if they have shortfall. I am sure they know how to handle that. The four hubs are operational. We have as many as 1080 people working in them and we are again recruiting 1080 people. They are being trained at Manesar.

Barkha: There have been suggestions from the NSG including retired NSG Director General that stop using our commandos for VIP security. You are somebody that rare politician who doesn't uses security. Do you think it is time that the politicians don't emulate that our best commandos can not be wasted and I don't mean to in a sense diminish the vulnerability that the politician face but should there be another force raised to protect them and should the NSG commandos not be used for the protection of politicians?

Chidambaram: Two issues are here. Politically they do face threats. You should not underestimate this.

Barkha: No I don't mean to at all because we have lost people.

Chidambaram: Otherwise, politics in this country will be leaded less effectively. Therefore if a political leader faces threat he has to be provided security. I think the government is committed to provide security to every leader who faces a threat. The question is who should provide security. Historically NSG has provided it to certain leaders. There was a news paper story that it would be withdrawn. There was no basis to that story because there was no decision taken like that. And you saw the reaction in Parliament.

Barkha: But do you empathies with that reaction personally or as a home minister?

Chidambaram: Well I don't comment on what is said in the Parliament because that will trigger another reaction.

Barkha: You have not answered the question. Do you think that the NSG commandos should be used for the protection of the politicians and I am stressing again that I don't mean to diminish the degree of vulnerability of the people concerned.

Chidambaram: Can I ask you to put this question to protected persons.

Barkha: So does that mean that at this point, given the reaction in Parliament you don't think that it is opportune time to charge rules.

Chidambaram: We have to respect the reaction made in the Parliament and the response given by the minister and the PMO.

Barkha: It means that it is not changing for now? Do you wish it could?

Chidambaram: I wish that there arrive a day when there is no security threat to the political leaders. But as long as there is a threat to political leaders it is our duty to provide security to them and we will provide security to them.

Barkha: Why don't you use security?

Chidambaram: I don't think I need one.

Barkha: But you don't keep any personal security?

Chidambaram: Well I don't need one.

Barkha: You don't think the Home Minister of India could be a target of terror groups?

Chidambaram: I don't think so.

Barkha: Is that your rational assessment or is it just your personality?

Chidambaram: If there is a specific threat then I would certainly ask for security and have it. But I don't want to start by saying that being Home Minister means that I am threatened.

On whether Naxals are terrorists:

Barkha: Talking about Naxals briefly because we haven't spoken about that...your ministry released some very graphic images recently showing Naxal violence including a little girl and you very clearly declared them to be terrorists. My question is how does this log jam gets broken? Lets take Lalgarh for example. That is still in the grip of Maoists.

Chidambaram: That is not correct. The civil administration is being reestablished. Health services, road work, drinking water...all that is being made available, something that was not there for many many years. But around the habitated areas you have forests where I think the Maoists still have control.

Barkha: Is that failure of the state government?

Chidambaram: It's not a success. Lets put it that way.

Barkha: It is failure in other words?

Chidambaram: The state government asked for forces and we provided forces. The strategy must be devised by them. We can only help. The first four weeks were met with a large degree of success but since then there has been stagnation.

Barkha: Do you feel that the state government doesn't want to take risk in this area? Is this because of absence of political will?

Chidambaram: Well there are number of factors. The way the state police is organised. The way the state police is deployed is also a factor. I think that there are political factors in the West Bengal government which is affecting the command and control of the operation.

Barkha: This is not the operation the Home Ministry is willing to conduct on itself?

Chidambaram: No, How can I conduct an operation?

Barkha: Why not?

Chidambaram: Not unless the state government says that 'We can't do it. You do it.' They haven't said that yet.

Barkha: But given the general policy on Naxalism once you identify them as terrorists. What does it do to your policy of being willing to talk to them?

Chidambaram: Wait a minute. I have not said that they are terrorists in the sense that I characterise the cross border terrorists and home grown terrorists?

Barkha: What is the difference?

Chidambaram: I said that act which they perpetrate was an act of terror.

Barkha: But are Naxals terrorists?

Chidambaram: Not all but certainly some acts amount to terrorists acts. The Naxals believe in arms liberation struggle. Now I am elected in office and taken oath unto a republican constitution which rejects arms liberation struggle. So, no government in India can accept an armed liberation struggle. We are implacably opposed to each other. How do you break this? So we have said "if you abjure violence, give up arms liberation struggle, then we are willing to talk to you about your grievance, structure of local administration, of development, about money, and about corruption." We are willing to talk on any issue which Naxal think.

Barkha: But are there preconditions that they have to lay down their arms?

Chidambaram: No we want them to abjure violence. That is all we have said.

Barkha: So has there been any movement in trying to create a dialogue with them?

Chidambaram: Many Chief Ministers have tried in the past. NT Rama Rao and Chandrababu Naidu. I believe one or two other Chief Ministers have tried but they have not succeeded. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try again. That is why at the Chief Minister's conference I said if you abjure violence and give up the theory of armed liberation struggle, we are going to talk to you. But also give up your anti-development action like blowing up school buildings, blowing up telephone towers and mining roads.

Barkha: Do you believe that in part there are also political failure that have strengthened the Naxals?

Chidambaram: Perhaps.

Barkha: Lack of access to development?

Chidambaram: Perhaps but that can't explain Naxalism. Many parts of India which are poor rather poorer the areas are dominated by Naxalites. But that doesn't justify armed liberation struggle.

Barkha: I want to end by talking about your own stint at the Home Ministry. We spoke earlier about how you don't keep security, how you don't necessarily use a Lal Batti car beacons today?

Chidambaram: So what? What the big deal about it?

Barkha: You bought your own ticket to Hyderabad when the Britons pulled out of the tournament to make a point.

Chidambaram: Yes. There I wanted to make a point.

Barkha: Was that deliberate and planned?

Chidambaram: Yes it was. I was burning inside when they pulled out. They pulled out the day after I made a statement that full and comprehensive security will be provided. No one need fear. I want the World Badminton Championship to succeed. I said that. After that these two British players pulled out and they have since apologised but I was burning inside so I planned it. Of Course, I couldn't have not planned it and landed in Hyderabad without a plan. But I planned it in great confidence.

Barkha: Are you worried that there will be repeat performances of that in the Commonwealth Games?

Chidambaram: No. I make this promise that the Commonwealth games will be conducted under full and comprehensive security that will be the envy of any other country in the world. And nobody need fear. No player, no manager, no country. There won't be any security threat to the Commonwealth games.

Barkha: Can you really guarantee against a terror strike?

Chidambaram: As any human being can I.

Barkha: That is good to hear but you also seemed to have introduced something that seemed to have changed the culture of Sarkars as we know them. The attendance system, the swipe card?

Chidambaram: No no...it is simply reinstituting the work culture. There was a work culture earlier. Over the years it seems to have been lost sight of. All I am asking people is that we have declared a five day working week. We ask people to work 40 hours a week. Is that too much? Surely not. There are many people in this country who work longer hours. Farmers, labourers, self employed people work much longer hours, and teachers work much longer hours. So we are asking government servants to work 40 hours a week. But I recognise given Delhi traffic and congestion etc there has to be some flexi time. So all we say is that you clock in 40 hours a week. If you come half an hour late you work half an hour more.

Barkha: But you made a joke about how government standard time is no longer going to be followed in your ministry?

Chidambaram: Did I?

Barkha: Well, if you didn't, it sounds like a good comment anyway.

Chidambaram: I always said that 9 to 5.30 is the official work time. Everyone should follow that.

Barkha: How did your babus react to it?

Chidambaram: The senior officers anyway work much longer. Nobody can be a senior officer in the home ministry and say that I want to work only between 9 to 5.30. That is pretty stupid. They work for at least 10 hours. But I want people to work at least 40 hours a week. When I work for more than 40 hours, I am sure even you work more than 40 hours especially after the 5th pay commission which was a big improvement and the sixth pay commission which was an even bigger improvement. The least we owe the people of this country who pay us is that we work 40 hours a week.

Barkha: This is seen by many as your attempt to bring efficiency to a laggard system, as your attempt to change a culture in a sense how governments behave?

Chidambaram: Well, if it is change for the better you should welcome it, but I think in my ministry everybody has accepted it and everybody is clocking 40 hours a week. We will get the feedback in about two weeks. It is recorded everyday but I said I'll look at it only after about two weeks and if there are one or two people who have to be counseled they will be counseled.

Barkha: How many hours a week do you work?

Chidambaram: In the office? Well if you accept that I work at all, I think it is many many hours ..you see, I have to count the cabinet meeting hours, the group of ministers hours which are held in Cabinet Minister's conference room. We have to also count the visits we make to various places, all that has to be counted.

Barkha: When you were made Home Minister in the aftermath of 26/11, you had said that it was not a ministry that you had wanted.

Chidambaram: No, I didn't say anything like that.

Barkha: You had said that.

Chidambaram: I said I was reluctant. But orders are orders and I accepted orders.

Barkha: And because you actually performed well, you became Home Minister again, and in a sense some people believe that its not a ministry that would have been your first choice. But many Indians believe that you are doing an absolutely sterling job. So, in a sense are you now being punished for being good?

Chidambaram: No, being Home Minister is a great honour. Please remember, this chair was occupied by Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel and it was also occupied by Pandit Govind Vallabh Pant. These are giants. So being Home Minister is an honour. But since I had done four years and eight months as Finance Minister, I was looking forward to completing the tenure as Finance Minister. But as I said, orders are orders.

Barkha: Well I can tell you we feel that country's in safer hands so thank you.

Chidambaram: Well I hope so.

Barkha: Thank you so much Mr. Chidambaram.

Chidambaram: Thank you.