Chidambaram's home truths

New Delhi: NDTV: Mr Chidambaram, we all saw the image of the shoe being hurled in your direction, it missed you, everything that's happened since then has become so much bigger, in a sense it appears that moment became a catalyst for something much bigger. Jagdish Tytler has now said that he's not going to pursue his ticket and that he leaves the decision up to the Congress Party. Do you not think that given the intensity of emotion that that incident evoked, it was a mistake to give Mr Tytler and Mr Sajjan Kumar a ticket in the first place?

Chidambaram: I don't take these decisions and I can't pass judgment on these matters. The point is, both Mr Tytler and Mr Sajjan Kumar were given tickets in 2004, they won the election and they have represented their constituencies. Now if there is a sea change in the view of their constituents, I don't know, I can't say.

NDTV: But what about political morality, the questions of political morality that it raises?

Chidambaram: I thought I've answered this several times before, there is no issue of morality here. There is an allegation against A and B. It is being investigated, people will have different views about the investigation. Ultimately, in the Indian scheme of things only, I repeat, only a court, a judge can pronounce whether a person is guilty or innocent. I can't do that, you can't do that.

NDTV: There was a judicial commission, the Nanavati Commission that used the phrase 'credible evidence' for Jagdish Tytler and 'credible material' for Sajjan Kumar. That was a judicial commission

Chidambaram: You see, I haven't read the whole report, but I know the operative part. It said 'very probably' they were involved and therefore asked for further investigation. That is how the matter landed in the lap of the CBI. So the Nanavati Commission's conclusion was not a final conclusion. But it recommended further investigation. The matter went to the CBI. CBI submitted a report; the court rejected the report and asked for further investigation. Now there is another report by the CBI, which will go to the court again, as I believe it went today. It's for the court to accept or reject the report or direct further investigation. Why do we not see the parallel in the Gujarat case, the same Nanavati Commission whitewashed most of the atrocities in Gujarat. The matter went to the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court ordered an SIT to investigate the matter. That report lies in a sealed cover before the Supreme Court. So can anyone pronounce anyone guilty until that report is opened?

NDTV: Are you saying that the Nanavati Commission is not credible? You used the phrase 'whitewashed the Gujarat riots'.

Chidambaram: Well, that's the conclusion I'm entitled to draw once the Supreme Court appoints an SIT, rejecting the Nanavati Commission.

NDTV: So to that extent you don't really buy into what the Nanavati Commission said about Gujarat and therefore you don't buy into what it said about 1984?

Chidambaram: These are opinions drawn by commissions on the basis of facts before them. I don't attribute motives to them. Under the Indian law, or any other legal system with which we are familiar, only, and I repeat, only a court can pronounce a person guilty or innocent. You and I can have an opinion, but that remains an opinion.

NDTV: But the fact is that the court has set a date for the next hearing. But the last date for filing nominations is before that hearing. In other words, the Congress has to decide before that date, whether it listens to Jagdish Tytler and gives him a ticket or it backs off from Mr. Tytler's candidature. You can't wait for the court in this case, this is a political decision.

Chidambaram: They will take a decision.

NDTV: What is the thinking within the party, what is your thinking as a senior Congress leader?

Chidambaram: I'm not in the part decision making.

NDTV: So you don't have an opinion on this?

Chidambaram: I have an opinion, but I'm not obliged to express an opinion, because there are other people, better qualified, better placed to take that decision.

NDTV: But it is now a political decision so why do you keep talking about the court? The candidature of Mr. Tytler is a political decision.

Chidambaram: A political decision will be taken, but you are asking me what the legal position is and I'm explaining the legal position so that your viewers will understand what the legal position is.

NDTV: Ok, I wanted to rewind to that moment that is now being called 'shoegate' and so on, by some people in media. There are those who have said that given the sensitivity of the matter, you as the Home Minister, could have allowed Jarnail Singh, the journalist, a few more questions, that you should not have said no more questions. You did answer a couple of them, I saw that myself, but were you, in retrospect, maybe too impatient with him, given the sensitivity of the matter?

Chidambaram: Replay that tape again, I've answered his question fully. I've answered a supplementary. I've answered a second supplementary. He wished to, and he realizes it now, engage with me in a discussion, in an argument, which I said a press conference is not a place either to make a political statement or to argue the matter, it's a Question and Answer. Besides, what was the occasion? The occasion was to release this paper, not a general press conference.

NDTV: The paper on terrorism.

Chidambaram: The paper on terror and I was anxious that the paper on terror, on a subject of vital importance, gets the kind of media coverage it deserves, rather than get side-tracked on a debate. It was not an interview one-on-one, it was a press conference. I think the question was answered fully. Best as I know, you're the first person who thinks that it was not answered.

NDTV: No, I'm not saying that what I think, I'm saying that some people have raised that issue in discussions.

Chidambaram: Some people might like a full-scale debate on television, but that was not the place to debate it.

NDTV: So you don't think you could not have handled that moment any differently than you did?

Chidambaram: I'm not as wise and clever as some of those people who think differently, I did my best, and I said so, I said I've answered the question to the best of my ability and all of you are witness to that.

NDTV: Jagdish Tytler said that he believed that the person who tried to throw a shoe in your direction is an Akali or a plant by the Akalis, is that your assessment as well?

Chidambaram: I don't know. I've not made any effort.

NDTV: But you've heard him on television since then, he's apologised, he regrets what he did and so on.

Chidambaram: So I accept it.

NDTV: You don't hold a grudge against him?

Chidambaram: Oh not at all. Not even at that moment. And certainly not two days later.

NDTV: Do you believe that he was reflecting, in a sense, a larger genuine angst and unhappiness in the Sikh community?

Chidambaram: I suppose he did and if he did, I can't complain, except, that the forum was a wrong forum.

NDTV: So you understand the sentiment, you just don't understand where he raised it and how he raised it?

Chidambaram: Of course I understand the sentiment, I said so. I said perhaps not enough people have been punished, some have been punished, perhaps the wheel of law turns rather slowly and therefore people are impatient. Yet, being a lawyer, being a minister, being sworn to the Constitution, I have to say, however unhappy it makes some people that the only way a person can be pronounced guilty or innocent is by a court.

NDTV: But 25 years is a bit slow even by standards of Indian law, 25 years and no visible action.

Chidambaram: I can give you examples of other carnages that took place in the early 1980s and then in the early 1990s - no one has been punished so far - two wrongs don't make a right. But that's a sad reflection on the Indian system.

NDTV: But you remember the Prime Minister apologising for 1984 in Parliament. Sonia Gandhi at the Golden Temple, Rahul Gandhi making statements after that. Do you think that there is also a question of political symbolism here that this is a government run by a Sikh Prime Minister. Some say that he was quite upset at the ticket given to Jagdish Tytler that he did not want that to be the case.

Chidambaram: Well, I can't comment on that, all I know is that the PM's apology was a genuinely felt apology. I think statements made by Congress leaders expressing their deep anguish and regret about what happened in 1984 were genuinely made. But they have no control over the system, where the court has to try persons according to law.

NDTV: Some newspaper reports suggest that the government wants to look at the CBI report. CBI is independent, why should the government be looking at the report at all?

Chidambaram: To my knowledge, no one has called for the report. In fact the report is submitted to the court.

NDTV: So the Prime Minister has not called for the report or the CBI Director?

Chidambaram: You're asking me questions on the base of newspaper reports. You should ask this question to the newspaper correspondents.

NDTV: Well, I'm just asking you to contradict, confirm or deny.

Chidambaram: I don't know, I've not asked for the report.

NDTV: Fair enough, one last question on this subject. For you personally, what was that moment, was it a moment that reflected the anxiety of a community, was it the moment of a journalist going beyond the norms of decency or was it something you're ready to look back and laugh at or would you think it was serious moment which raises serious questions?

Chidambaram: You're giving too much importance to a momentary lapse of judgement by a journalist. I think it was a passing emotional outburst and I think he regretted it immediately and I don't wish to attach too much importance to that.

NDTV: But do you believe that that momentary lapse of judgement has now perhaps shifted a political decision because till this particular show throwing incident happened, Jagdish Tytler was very much the candidate of the Congress Party.

Chidambaram: I don't know.

NDTV: You've seen the kind of sentiment its invoked across the country?

Chidambaram: It has, but maybe there would have been another trigger, maybe there would have been another protest. This is a momentary lapse of judgement by a journalist, so I don't think we should raise it to any higher level or glorify it or vilify it. All these things don't apply, simply a momentary lapse of judgement by a journalist.

NDTV: Ok, moving on to something else that has been occupying public space. Sonia Gandhi on the radar of the LTTE is the reports we've been seeing in the last 24 hours, is that correct?

Chidambaram: Well, I can't discuss specific threats to specific individuals. But I think that the newspaper report today was rather alarmist. We take adequate precautions to protect important leaders from specific sources of threat.

NDTV: Intelligence sources seem to suggest that there is a specific advisory to Southern States, in particular about the LTTE and a threat to Mrs. Gandhi?

Chidambaram: Well, I know the advisory. This is an advisory on the eve of the tour of important political leaders to states, listing the possible sources of threat. That doesn't mean that there is a specific threat on that tour, or on that day, or on that occasion.

NDTV: But to that individual?

Chidambaram: These are the sources of threat to that individual for which we have already taken adequate security precautions. An individual has been given a certain level of security cover.

NDTV: And yet the state from where you come, Vaiko made a statement saying that the ban on the LTTE should be lifted, he's warned of bloodbath if anything happens to Prabhakaran, and nobody in the political establishment seems to express any distaste, nobody seems to issue him notices, nobody puts the NSA on him, what do you make of Vaiko's statements?

Chidambaram: Vaiko's position is a known position. He, from time to time crosses the line. The last time he was detained, he was detained by his newfound ally, Ms. Jayalalitha's government. He made that statement in Tamil Nadu. So it's for the government of Tamil Nadu to look at the content of that statement. But I think that since he's made such statements so many times in the past, the ring of credibility to such statements is weaker and weaker.

NDTV: You're saying Vaiko could just be ignored?

Chidambaram: Well it'll be best to ignore him. Unless he commits any overt offence.

NDTV: He was an ally of the UPA as well, so clearly no ideological .

Chidambaram: No, that's not right, get the facts straight. He was an ally of the DMK.

NDTV: Which was part of the UPA

Chidambaram: Which several parties joined in Tamil Nadu. The UPA was formed post elections. His party did not find a place in the UPA government and within months, weeks. He left the alliance in Tamil Nadu and by definition left the UPA. So he was never a full-fledged member of the UPA government or the UPA alliance in Delhi.

NDTV: Isn't that sophistry in a sense, because he was with the DMK and as a group they were with your government?

Chidambaram: Sophistry is a very harsh word. These are facts. The UPA was formed after the elections; there was no UPA before the elections. He was an ally before the elections, shortly after the elections he left the alliance; he was never part of the UPA government.

NDTV: Alright, there remains the question of the DMK that is an ally. DMK continues to talk about atrocities against the Lankan Tamils, so does the Congress but isn't the line blurring dangerously between raising the cause of the Lankan Tamils and somewhat appearing to be soft on the LTTE. The political irony is so glaring these were Rajiv Gandhi's assassins.

Chidambaram: Not at all, please remember, there are approximately 17 lakh Tamils in the tea plantations. There are about 17 lakh Tamils in the Eastern Province. There are 17 lakh Tamils in the Northern Province, where the LTTE held sway and continues to hold sway in parts. The tea plantation Tamils have their own leaders, in fact some of them are part of the government. The 17 lakh Tamils in the Eastern Province have elected a government. We can debate the quality of the government, but it is an elected government. It has a chief minister and one of them has since joined the Central government in Sri Lanka. We're now talking about the 17 lakhs in the Northern Province and there are some reports that many of them are held as human shields by the LTTE, many of them are trapped in the No-War Zone, many of them want to leave that area, we're not going into all that. Therefore, when we talk about the lives of innocent Tamils, especially women and children, we all speak in the same voice. There are of course, some voices which are pro-LTTE. The Congress is not pro-LTTE. AIADMK, Ms. Jayalalitha, until 2 weeks ago was vehemently anti-LTTE and the DMK has distanced itself from the LTTE since 1991.

NDTV: The DMK wants the UPA or the government to push the Sri Lankan government into a ceasefire?

Chidambaram: So do we.

NDTV: Is it something you support?

Chidambaram: Yes, we have asked, let me say it for the record, the Prime Minister, the External Affairs Minister, the Foreign Secretary, we've repeatedly called upon the Sri Lankan government to ceasefire. The most recent is the letter written by Mrs Gandhi to Mr Karunanidhi, where she says that the obvious first step is a ceasefire, is a cessation of hostilities, we demand cessation of hostilities.

NDTV: But they're acting against the LTTE.

Chidambaram: Both sides refused to heed our appeal, the LTTE refuses to say that it will cease hostilities and come to the negotiating table. The Sri Lankan government refuses to say that we will suspend the war and invite the LTTE for talks. We are appealing, along with the US, UK, United Nations, European Union, Norway and many other countries that the first step, unconditional without any preconditions, both sides must suspend hostilities and then we can all work together to bring them to the table. It may take a few days, but to suspend hostilities, doesn't require any argument, that is the first obvious step.

NDTV: Is the LTTE a serious threat to our senior political leaders?

Chidambaram: Not as we speak. Because LTTE has repeatedly stated that it holds no threat to any Indian leader and that in fact they did say that what happened in 1991, in a way was regrettable.

NDTV: So the reports about the threat to Sonia Gandhi from the LTTE are exaggerated, incorrect?

Chidambaram: The report that came out this morning was a rather exaggerated report.

NDTV: So with a kernel of truth, but overdone?

Chidambaram: Well, I've answered.

NDTV: Lets move from the South to the North, again intelligence agency reports, transcripts I've seen myself, intercepted conversations between Lashkar terrorists talking about the presence of the Taliban in Jammu and Kashmir, is that something that the Home Ministry has assessed?

Chidambaram: Well, there are intercepts, we interpret them. We now think that the Let, JeM, JuM, HM are working in concert, earlier they were working separately. Now, we don't know who's directing them, is it the ISI, is it another state agency or is it a non-state player, is it the Taliban, its too early to say. The word Taliban has occurred in that conversation but I think it's too early to draw any conclusions. When we draw some conclusions, then I will be better informed, but at the moment we cannot draw any conclusions, we simply have to keep our powder dry, make sure that we remain on high alert. Because if four organisations are acting in concert, that means that the level of threat is pretty high.

NDTV: Because the intercepts actually suggest that the Taliban is trying to control.

Chidambaram: That's an interpretation of a conversation.

NDTV: So at the moment, we cannot say whether the Taliban has a presence in India or not?

Chidambaram: Well, if you're saying that a Taliban infiltrator has crossed the LoC.

NDTV: There are reports of 30 Taliban fighters.

Chidambaram: I don't think anyone has captured anyone to identify him as the Taliban. All that we know is that there is a serious attempt to infiltrate into India. We've had this struggle for the last several weeks, we've neutralized many. Our jawans have lost lives. And therefore we remain on high alert. Whether they are Taliban or not is a matter we will have to decide later. At the moment, there is a serious and determined effort to infiltrate into India and we are fully alive to the situation and we will neutralise the infiltrators.

NDTV: It seems from the ground in Jammu and Kashmir and along the LoC that the kind of infiltrators we're now seeing are much more sophisticated in the kind of weaponry they are bringing, in their training and that there is in fact an increased spurt of violence in Kashmir in the last couple of months?

Chidambaram: That's true.

NDTV: How does the Home Ministry read that?

Chidambaram: Well, as I said, we don't know if anyone is in control in Pakistan. It's quite possible that different authorities, different entities, are becoming more and more adventurist. It's possible that some organisations have come together, as we suspect. The level of threat is certainly higher today and therefore we remain on a higher level of alert.

NDTV: Is this something that has been brought up with the Government of Pakistan, the increased infiltration attempts and so on?

Chidambaram: I think so, but who is the government in Pakistan?

NDTV: Against the backdrop of what's happening in Kashmir, Omar Abdullah, you were in Jammu, he spoke, and he has spoken about the withdrawal of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act. That was another context there were human rights violations that took place in Sopur and so on. But when you juxtapose this with increased violence, do you believe that it is time, to actually scrap the AFSPA in Jammu and Kashmir?

Chidambaram: Two different things - infiltration, attempt to infiltrate terrorists into India has to be met squarely, decisively and without flinching. What laws will apply in a conflict zone is a separate issue.

NDTV:>But the chief minister has raised it?

Chidambaram: He raised it in a press conference, which we jointly addressed, when I clarified, he immediately said I concur with what the home minister said. At the very same press conference, I told him, it is under my review. There are some draft amendments that have been proposed. It is being examined internally within the government and we will take it up after the elections. He immediately concurred.

NDTV: But do you believe it should be reviewed, the time has come?
Chidambaram: The time has come to amend some provisions of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act and if the Congress is voted back to power, we will indeed bring those amendments to Parliament.

NDTV: Richard Holbrooke was here, he made the statement that continuously comes out from the Obama administration that America, India and Pakistan face a common threat, a common enemy. There's a kind of equivalence in that statement.

Chidambaram: Well, I cannot comment on Holbrooke because his is the guest of the MEA and the MEA will give and official response. So I can't comment on that statement. All I can say is that the security situation in South Asia has deteriorated thanks to what's happening in Afghanistan and Pakistan. I can also say that Paksitani soil continues to be used for terrorist activities in India. Now, these are the two statements I can make, but beyond that I can't, and I don't wish to commend on these very fine equations that are being drawn by you.

NDTV: Let's talk about something that does actually pertain to your ministry. The BJP talks about illegal migration from Bangladesh all the time and makes the point that the Congress does nothing about it and that when you talk about groups like HUJI, when we see what happened recently in the North East, it is the oppositions contention that because of political reasons, your party is soft on illegal migrants from Bangladesh?

Chidambaram: For six years, between 1998 and 2004, not one Bangladeshi came to India? So say that and applaud and compliment the BJP.

NDTV: That's not answering the question

Chidambaram: That's complete rubbish, migration from Bangladesh to India has been going on since the 1980s. Successive governments have not been able to find and effective answer to stop this illegal migration. On the western border, the fencing helped. On the eastern border, the fencing has made very tardy progress. So you want the political system to take the blame, that's correct. Successive governments have failed in finding ways and means to stop the illegal migration from Bangladesh into India. Now in the last few months, I have, after reviewing the situation, directed a number of steps to be taken. They are under implementation. You will not see results over night. We have drawn upon a revised and faster pace for fencing, for computerizing the border points, for checking Visa's, for matching entry and exit of Bangladeshi visitors to India. You will see results after some time. And if the Congress is voted back to power, we will implement the MNIC project. A project, which is well underway now. 2009-10 we would have issued MNICs to all coastal towns and villages and to Andaman and Nicobar. In 2010-11, we will begin the MNIC cards issue to all usual residents of India. And I think if the plan that I have drawn up is implemented fully and faithfully by the next government, you will see a distinct change in the phenomenon of illegal migration from Bangladesh into India. We have a comprehensive plan for the first time.

NDTV: Ok, is this anti-terror paper that your press conference was supposed to be about, what would you say is the biggest lesson and change that has been brought into the security system, post 26/11. What is that we as a country, what you as a government have learnt and changed?

Chidambaram: What I have learnt, is that systems must be put in place and the systems must operate fairly automatically and autonomously. It shouldn't require Mumbai or any other incident to trigger the system coming into life. The system must operate seamlessly, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

NDTV: What was our biggest gap?

Chidambaram: Our biggest gap was that there was no system. There's never been a system for the last 7-10 years. It's been elements of an apparatus they're not talking to each other, in a figurative sense and not communicating with each other. So we've now put in place, I believe, a system. It has to be fine-tuned, it has to be refined. It is being refined. It has to talk to each other and then there has to be a collective sense of responsibility, for good and the bad, for what is done and what is not done. And it should not depend upon; in law we have a phrase- The foot of the Chancellor- or here the foot of the Home Minister. It should function autonomously, automatically.

NDTV: But isn't it horrifying that is took 26/11 for us to talk about putting a system in place?

Chidambaram: We should have talked about it in fact, after Parliament was attacked, we should have talked about it after the Kandahar hijack, we should have talked about it earlier.

NDTV: You're talking about incidents that took place under the BJP tenure, but several took place in the tenure of the UPA and you didn't talk about it then?

Chidambaram: Since you mentioned one, I mentioned another. The idea is not to apportion blame. I've got this job on the December 1. Am I doing my job the right way, if I'm not doing my job the right way, I should be axed. If I'm doing my job the right way, as I believe I am, you will see the results as we go along.

NDTV: But you've been disinclined to take this job?

Chidambaram: Disinclined only because of the time and the context. We had barely 5 months to go. We had offices at the end of their normal tenure, before superannuation. The country and the government would go into election mode in the middle of March. Parliament would meet for only a few days to transact business. I was not sanguine about what could be accomplished in those 4-5 months. Rather that completed my job as the Finance Minister. But as I said, that was simply a statement of fact. For a moment I said I was disinclined. But finally it's the party that takes the decision.

NDTV: Now how do you see it?

Chidambaram: Well, I'm doing a job, it's for you guys to tell me whether I'm doing the job reasonably well, or well or badly.

NDTV: One of the statements you made at one of your press conferences was about linking, not a direct link, but you spoke about communal politics and how that might influence alienation and terrorists.

Chidambaram: Oh yes.

NDTV: Isn't this a terribly dangerous argument to make because it sounds like you're almost making up reasons and context for why terrorists strike?

Chidambaram: Wrong. If you've studied the literature on terrorism, if you're studied the patterns of terror attacks all over the world. If you've looked deeply into what terrorists have told us in interrogations and conversations etc., its quite clear that one of the biggest triggers for terror is an attempt to divide India on religious lines. I can debate it, I'm pretty confident I can convince anyone.

NDTV: You're saying that the alienation of specific communities creates terrorists?

Chidambaram: Not alienation. It's an attempt to divide a country on religious lines; it is one of the strongest triggers for terror. And therefore you cannot fight terror unless you fight the attempt to divide the country on religious lines. Imagine for a moment that America was attacked by a set of blacks from whatever part of the world. Not Muslins, as they say they did. And imagine if a political party in America divided America on racial lines. Let me tell you, very sincerely, the US government would not have been able to fight terror, as they've done successfully since 9/11.

NDTV: What's the analogy in India?

Chidambaram: The analogy in India is, there is a deliberate attempt to divide India on the lines of Hindu and non-Hindu. Yesterday the RSS have said Hindutva is the signature tune of India. Now how can I accept that?

NDTV: So are you saying that when the Indian Mujahideen strikes in the name of the Gujarat riots for example to avenge what happened in Gujarat, you can see a justification?

Chidambaram: No, completely unjustified. Completely unjustified.

NDTV: But yet understand that as a cause and effect

Chidambaram: I don't, all I'm saying is, one of the triggers is an attempt to divide the country. And then there is a consequence to it. When there is an Islamic terror, there is also a consequence, so Hindu militants also band together and they unleash terror. Again if you go back to the root cause, it is an attempt to divide the country. A Muthalik, in the older days there was a Sadhvi Rithambara and now Varun Gandhi spewing venom and hate. All this are the cases where people are wittingly or unwittingly dividing this country on religious lines. Kandhamal, Christian and Hindu, two tribes being divided on the line of Christianity. Now that unleashes terror.

NDTV: You spoke about Varun Gandhi's comments. Your ally, or not your ally, Lalu Prasad Yadav said he'd crush him under a bull dozer, yes he was being metaphorical, not literal, but is that a comment he should have made?

Chidambaram: No, he should not have made that comment.

NDTV: Because?

Chidambaram: And he should not have dragged, quote-unquote, the office of the Home Minister in it.

NDTV: Why should he not have made that comment if he wasn't being literal as you yourself have said?

Chidambaram: He's a minister. He's taken office under the Constitution. However offensive the speech of Varun Gandhi was, however deplorable it was, Varun Gandhi is entitled to be tried by court. And punished by a court, if he's guilty. There's no other way, and I say this again and again, whether it's the case of Sikh anguish or Lalu's outrage against Varun Gandhi. I'm sorry, I have to say this again and again for the viewers. We are a society ruled by law. And the only way any kind of offence can be punished is by a court of law.

NDTV: Given what you're saying, do you not believe that the NSA, the National Security Act was something that the UP government perhaps overdid, that he could have just been tried in court?

Chidambaram: I answer that question by saying that since I'm the reviewing authority in the case of a representation that may be filed by Varun Gandhi to the Central Government. I have to take a quasi-judicial view. I cannot answer that question. I will deal with the representation if it comes to the table, I will take no more than a day to deal with it.

NDTV: But you do not have a view on it?

Chidambaram: I have a view, but I can't express it.

NDTV: Why is that?

Chidambaram: Because I have to take a quasi-judicial view on a representation.
NDTV: But you're talking about everybody being entitled to due process of law?

Chidambaram: The due process of law enables him to file a representation. The due process of law requires me to consider the representation and take a decision whether the order detaining him was right or wrong. I'm acting like a judge there. A judge can act, and should act, only when the list comes before him. Not before that.

NDTV: I noticed in conclusion that several times you said that if the Congress is voted back, you didn't say if the UPA is voted back, because it doesn't seem to exist anymore.

Chidambaram: No, I'm sorry, when I say if the Congress is voted back to power, I mean because I'm speaking as a member of my party. But, let me clarify for the record, if the Congress is voted back at the head of the next government, it will be a Congress-led coalition government.

NDTV: My question really was a political question about the rather incomprehensible behaviour of some of your allies who seem to be both with you and not with you. Let's take Sharad Pawar who shared a stage with Sitaram Yechury. It wasn't a rally, it was a press conference, but it was in the same frame, in the same space. Congress didn't have a problem with that?

Chidambaram: Sharad Pawar, I think sent a very subtle message to the Left Front that I'm not with you, my plane has developed a snag.

NDTV: But he was sitting with Sitaram Yechury?

Chidambaram: I'm coming to that, Sharad Pawar sent a subtle message to the Left parties that I'm not with you. I'm with Naveen Patnaik. So his plane developed a snag, his phone didn't work. And then he told Naveen, I'm joining you for a rally, and I think Mr. Sitaram Yechury invited himself. And Sharad Pawar made it clear yesterday that he's not with the Left front, he's with Naveen Patnaik and that is an Orissa specific alliance.

NDTV: SO you're saying that Mr. Pawar didn't know that Mr. Sitaram Yechury was going to be there at the press conference? Is that your understanding?

Chidambaram: That's my guess.

NDTV: Random guess, or based on information?

Chidambaram: Based on the fact that couple of days ago he studiously avoided a rally where the Left.

NDTV: Maybe he's playing both sides?

Chidambaram: No no, he's not. He wants to win seats in several states. He has an alliance in Maharashtra, he tried for an alliance in Gujarat and Goa, I don't know whether he succeeded or not, I don't know, I'm not following it very closely. He didn't get in alliance in Orissa, he's found an ally in Orissa. But this is no different from 2004. In 2004, there were many parties, which were not allies pre-poll, which became allies post-poll. We had some parties which were allies pre-poll, but which didn't join the UPA government, like the MDMK. I think in this coalition era, you will have some pre-poll allies, some post-poll allies. There will be a coalition government and if my instinct is right, if my assessment is right, it will be a Congress led coalition government by the end of May, 2009.

NDTV: That brings us to my last question, which is that if it isn't a Congress led government, will the Congress be willing to support a government or would it sit in opposition?

Chidambaram: No other government will be stable for more than a few weeks. And therefore the only government that will be stable will be a Congress-led coalition government.

NDTV: But would you consider supporting another coalition?

Chidambaram: Even if we did support, which I doubt, that government will collapse in a few weeks. So why go through that ritual?

NDTV: Well, we'll know the answer soon enough, thanks very much.

Chidambaram: Well thanks for your poll, the polls you have done so far clearly indicate that the Congress is winning close to 50 per cent of the seats.

NDTV: I notice this time you're not saying that the polls always get it wrong..
Chidambaram: I didn't say that before either, and I noticed that the NDA is winning roughly 33 per cent of the seats. If we go by your poll and the other information that I have, I'm reasonably sure, I'm being cocky, I'm not being over confident. I'm not trying to do a-la-NDA kind of thing. I think the people realize that given this very complex political situation that we have, given the meltdown, its much better to have a tried and tested hand at the wheel and that hand will be of Dr Manmohan Singh.

NDTV: Well in this case the voter will have the last word, neither you nor me.