New Delhi:
Anna Hazare is well, eating again and back in his Maharashtra village. The monsoon session of Parliament, that saw his three major demands being approved, ends next week. So what happens next in the Lokpal Bill story?
The government's draft of the Lokpal Bill will either see substantial changes or there could be a brand new bill, Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee told NDTV's Barkha Dutt.
NDTV: The Anna Haraze movement perhaps posed one of the most difficult challenges that the government has to confront recently. The challenge before UPA II was to address the popular sentiment as seen on the streets, at the same time to preserve the supremacy of Parliament. Many people believe it was left to the UPA's key troubleshooter, the man for all moments, Pranab Mukherjee to yet again find a way of taking the government out of the corner it had been boxed into. Headline after headline said 'Mr Reliable' has done it again. And now the Finance Minister Mr Pranab Mukherjee is with us to talk a little bit about the fortnight that has been so nervous for so many Indians. Sir, are you a very relieved man today? What was your primary sentiment when the Parliamentary debate ended and Anna Hazare agreed to end the fast, was it relief?
Pranab Mukherjee: Of course it was a great relief, because a very popular leader was agitating on a genuine concern of the people. And it is a concern of all concerned, whether people inside the government or outside the government, how to eradicate the corruption, at least to reduce it to the tolerable level. That was one of the primary concerns and people were agitating under a popular leader in a Gandhian way. Therefore, that was an issue, which was to be addressed adequately and ultimately he declared to give up his fast. Naturally all of us had a great relief.
NDTV: Did you have some very nervous moments? Did you think at some point this is not going to end happily?
Pranab Mukherjee: No, it is not the question of nervous moment. As a part of the administration, it was the job to be done. How quickly and how effectively to be done, that was always a concern. But the question of nervousness, I don't think that is the appropriate word. But yes, it was a matter of concern, always, it was a matter of concern.
NDTV: You said in your presentation in Parliament, sir, that this is the crossroads for India. I remember your opening the debate, in a sense, by saying this is the crossroads moment and that you were not exaggerating and you really believe that this was a critical juncture. Is it because you believe that this is an agitation that is permanently going to change politics? What impact is this going to have on politics?
Pranab Mukherjee: No, I explained it in detailed. I think when I had an interview with the correspondent of
BBC in Hanoi at the margins of the ADB meeting, ADB Annual General meeting, there I said it is a new dimension of our multi-party democratic function. India is the largest functional democracy having multiple parties and a population of 120 crore plus people. Therefore, it is an issue which is to be addressed within the democratic structure, within the constitutional norm. At the same time, people sentiment, as reflected in a peaceful agitation, should have a place in the system to be addressed adequately. Therefore, I do feel more and more such issues may come. It is not exactly in the same form, but the short point is, we have rules, we have norms, we have systems, we have procedural aspects, overall everything is being determined within the framework of the Constitution. But as it is a living society, that's why Indian Constitution was described by Sir Antony Eden at one point of time as the Magna Carta of the socio-economic transformation of the largest group of people. Therefore, socio-economic transformation which is taking place and that socio-economic transformation of 120 crore plus people, in that transformation process there will be many moments when it will apparently appear that it is contradictory to the existing sop. It is not following the same pattern as before or it is not fixing with the norms. So there should be adequate flexibility which I believe, our democracy has. Our democracy has that flexibility to adjust these things. Therefore, from that point of view, it is a great moment also.
NDTV: You think it is a great day for democracy in a way?
Pranab Mukherjee: In a way, that's how multi-party democratic system can respond to a popular agitation, when sometimes the demand from their agitation may appear against Constitutional norm or practice or Constitutional form. Therefore, it is to be adjusted and it has been adjusted.
NDTV: But you know there are some people who believe, and you referred to this in your speech also, you said some people think some people 'bungled'. You used that word. Do you believe, looking back, that there are lessons to learn - how the government handled it? The Opposition said that previously people were applying a very technical and legal approach instead of a political approach. Many people believe the day you were brought back to the mediation is the day the government needed the political approach, not a techno-legal approach.
Pranab Mukherjee: No, it's not merely a technical approach. Here I think I said also that somebody said it is 'bungled', I did not use this word. Somebody from the Floor said that 'you bungled this'. I said, yes, if that may be your assessment. But let me explain what did we do. He started fasting on 5th of April. Government recognised this is a very powerful movement led by a very popular leader, therefore it will have to be addressed. We addressed it. We accepted his demands on April 8 with a gazette notification of constituting the joint drafting committee, constituting five representatives of Shri Hazare including himself and five nominees of Prime Minister. The Joint Drafting Committee was constituted, the Joint Drafting Committee agreed to meet from April 16. In the first meeting itself, the ground rules for discussions had been...
NDTV: Laid down?
Pranab Mukherjee: Settled, agreed. Apart from that, settled. Therefore, it is not a question of 'bungling', it is a question of addressing the agitation adequately in the manner in which our system permits. And we had nine meetings. We had agreement out of the 40 basic principles, which were given by the civil society. The entire discussion based around those basic principles. We had agreements on as many as 34 and all of them were reflected in the act. Therefore, we thought, and we would not say 'bungling', somebody may say it was a wrong judgement. But we thought when it was discussed within the Parliamentary framework and the larger part of the demand has been accepted; later on we thought it will be settled. But what problem we had to face is that within a specific date this is to be passed. In our present composition of Parliament, where this ruling party does not have majority of its own, it became difficult to make its commitment. You will recollect, even before starting the agitation, Shri Hazare stated, within August 15, the bill is to be passed. Now, we completed our exercise by June 22. Thereafter, the normal legislation process has to be undertaken. Because this has been a new method, which has been adopted, first we conceptualise the legislation in the ministry, then inter-ministerial consultation takes place, then Cabinet gives its approval, then it is introduced in Parliament, then Parliament may decide to seek the public opinion. But seeking the public opinion, interacting with the public opinion represented by Shri Anna Hazare and his nominees, that was done much ahead of it, and it is not merely seeking their view. It is an attempt to draft jointly with them and their substantial agreement was there. Therefore, the short point I am trying to drive at, you may describe it as a misjudgement or error of judgement that the agitation will not take place. But the agitation that took place, there we did not have the adequate flexibility to address in Parliament. Parliament session began on August 1.
NDTV: Do you think you have misunderstood, underestimated the agitation that would follow?
Pranab Mukherjee: No, what we, agitation would take place. The popular support would be there, it was evident from the...
NDTV: Beginning?
Pranab Mukherjee: Beginning. Because it had happened on April 5 also. The question is how to address it, and how to bring it with in the Parliamentary system. That's why we started.
NDTV: But
Pranabda, don't you think the biggest mistake perhaps was to arrest Anna Hazare and to send him to Tihar Jail, that the symbolism of the movement was all wrong? Because in Tihar Jail was A Raja, Suresh Kalmadi... known people and we sent an anti-corruption crusader. Many people believe that was the turning point or one example, one key example of the 'bungling'?
Pranab Mukherjee: I think we should not enter into this question, because this has been adequately addressed by the Prime Minister and the Home Minister on the Floor of the House.
NDTV: But they defended it and later many leaders said it was a mistake...
Pranab Mukherjee: I would not like to add anything to it.
NDTV: What is your personal opinion?
Pranab Mukherjee: I cannot have a personal opinion so long as I am in the government.
NDTV: Let's phrase it in a larger question. Do you believe, some lessons have been learned by the government? That if you had to do it all over again, led by you, they eventually had by the mediator...
Pranab Mukherjee: This is not the issue.
NDTV: ... it would be handled differently?
Pranab Mukherjee: The issue was they also recognised a large area has been covered. Therefore, when we had discussions in the last round, it was pinpointed on three issues. Therefore, it is not that we started discussion on everything. It was pinpointed on three issues, and we had consultation with the political parties. First meeting took place on June 12. Immediately after the negotiations were over, exchange of drafts took place on June 22 in the last meeting. After that, on July 3, we met with other political parties. There we exchanged our views, the directions which we received, or you may call it, the suggestions which we received from the all-party meeting that let the government draft the bill. If you look at the sequence of events, you will find, that there was one point common, let government draft the bill and thereafter the process of discussion.
NDTV: Process of discussion?
Pranab Mukherjee: ... comment and exchange of views will take place. Therefore government exactly did that. Government drafted the bill, containing large part of the agreed document, agreed between the representatives of the civil society represented by Shri Anna Hazare and government representatives. And after the draft bill was introduced, it was sent to the
.... and draft bill cannot be introduced before Parliament is called. Parliament was called on August 1 and thereafter it was introduced.
NDTV: What happens to the government bill now? Because of course the government refused to withdraw that bill. You also spoke in Parliament about how the Anna Hazare's team burnt the bill. When they burnt the copies of the bill you felt that went against democracy. Now, there is a lot of confusion over the fact that the sense of the House, the statement that you read out,
Pranabda, in the end, that was not a vote. And in Lok Sabha it was not the formal resolution. So will it be binding on the future legislation?
Pranab Mukherjee: You know, let us look at the Parliamentary system and practice. It is referred to the Standing Committee. Standing Committee is the part of the whole process. Standing Committee will scrutinise the bill, which has been sent to them. The material, which has the entire proceedings have been forwarded to them. Jan Lokpal has also been referred to them, drafts received by other civil society members like JP Narayan...
NDTV: Aruna Roy...
Pranab Mukherjee: Aruna Roy and others has also been sent to them. And they will make their recommendations. What we have suggested in the all-party, sense of the House resolution, we have suggested if we don't want to use the word 'resolution', we conveyed the sense of the House in a formulation. And in that formulation we have recommended to the Standing Committee that Standing Committee will take into account of all these while formulating their recommendations, for the Lokpal Bill.
NDTV: Is it binding?
Pranab Mukherjee: Therefore...
NDTV: Is it binding in a way, is it binding in the future legislation?
Pranab Mukherjee: No, no, no. House is the master, legislation is the
... House is the master. Therefore, House is to accept that, so this will be, naturally they will take into account and when and in this case, the House has expressed its views, in the form on a sense of the House.
NDTV: Why did you decide at the end that the vote was not needed? Why did you decide that a resolution or a sense of the House is enough and the vote was not necessary?
Pranab Mukherjee: It was because when you approve, when you approve it by thumping the desk, most of the time, the sense of the House has never been voted. Sense of the House is when we express happiness, on the victory of Indian cricket team. How does it happen in the House? Speaker, from the chair, congratulates the team and expresses its happiness. We all thump the table. When we express our solidarity with the natural disaster, in any other country, how do we express, we do not put it to the motion.
NDTV: Yes.
Pranab Mukherjee: Speaker mentions, expresses solidarity to the people of that country and we thump the desk and we approve. There are various ways of conveying the Parliamentary approval.
NDTV: What happens now? Will we see the government bill amended substantively in the light of this resolution, or will we see a new bill?
Pranab Mukherjee: You are just to that point. Now the bill which will come as recommended by the Standing Committee, that will be the bill that have to consider.
NDTV: So it will be a new bill in a sense?
Pranab Mukherjee: No, no, it may be a new bill, it may be a substantial amendment of the...
NDTV: Government bill?
Pranab Mukherjee: Government bill. It may be recommendation of the committee, of other bills or all taking together, Jan Lokpal Bill and all others taking together, they will make their recommendations. Therefore, you have to wait. Contents of the bill is important.
NDTV: So, either a substantive amendment of the government bill or a brand new bill based on all these inputs. It could be either, depending on the Standing Committee, according to you, is that what you are saying?
Pranab Mukherjee: Let us see what Standing Committee does.
NDTV: Sir, many people have argued that till you stepped in, in a sense brought this to a resolution, the government's image was really taking a knock. So let's see on the key issue of including the Prime Minister within the ambit of the Lokpal Bill. Now it seems virtually that may happen, but the government argues so vociferously or some ministers argued so vociferously, that that should not happen. Are we now going to see the Prime Minister's inclusion within the Lokpal?
Pranab Mukherjee: I cannot comment when the bill is under the consideration. These are the major provisions of the bill. We have the differences, six major points. Prime Minister's inclusion was one such point. But now as the bill is under the consideration of the Standing Committee, I cannot comment unless the report of the Standing Committee is available.
NDTV: The statement at the end of the all-party meeting spoke about developing appropriate mechanisms. Also the resolution that you read out, are you concerned about the federal structure of the Constitution being preserved, while these mechanisms are found, to cover the Lokayukta for example or applied to the states? What is your concern on that issue, sir?
Pranab Mukherjee: Federal structure is to be maintained and federal structure can be maintained keeping in view, after all, legislation has to be done by the state Assembly for the Lokayukta.
Barkha: Yes.
Pranab Mukherjee: Now Union government can recommend to the state governments that we are providing the model legislation to you. It is for you to decide whether you will accept it in total, whether you will accept after making some necessary adjustments to suit your considerations. That is one way. Second way is under Article 252. If two states, in their Assembly, pass a resolution that we will request Parliament to pass the legislation on Lokayukta, then Parliament will have competence to make legislation in respect of those two states. Then, thereafter, other states may also join that we will also accept it. So there are various ways.
NDTV: There are some demands coming from the Anna Hazare's team that the House panel, the Standing Committee, can now be reconstituted. Manish Tewari has already recused himself. They don't want Lalu Prasad Yadav there. They don't want Amar Singh there. Your thoughts on that,
Pranabda?
Pranab Mukherjee: You know there is a form of reconstitution of the Standing Committee. This is the period. Standing Committee's life is one year. So every year Standing Committees are reconstituted, this year also it will be reconstituted. Who will come? From which party? That does not depend on the government, that depends on the party's concept.
NDTV: Are you worried that the precedence that this could set for the democracy going forward, because some people have said and you also made references to it, what if tomorrow there is some street protest on some other issue? What if every legislation is now sought to be, in a sense, worked out this way? Are you worried?
Pranab Mukherjee: No, I have already made it clear that there can be a demand for the legislations. That may come from the larger section of the society. But legislation is to be done only by the legislators. In respect of list two of the second Schedule (of the Constitution), for State List, it is the State Legislative Assembly. In respect of the Union List, it is Parliament. In respect of the Concurrent List, it is both Parliament and state legislators. But demand may come. That's why, at the very beginning, I said that in a growing democratic system, which is to address the interest of the large number of people, we should have adequate flexibility in the system where we can achieve the aspirations of the people within the Constitutional framework, norms, rules and regulations.
NDTV: Now you are seen to be somebody who can solve any political problem because you have relationships across the political divide. In this case too, in the end before the resolution was actually read out by you, you did have meetings with the Opposition leaders as well. Did you get the cooperation you sought from them?
Pranab Mukherjee: Of course, as I mentioned to you, particularly when the issue is so emotive, where the parties have definitive point, naturally we would also not like to divide the House. Therefore, this is an issue which people are agitating, as I mentioned, under a very popular leader, and every one of us is concerned and agreed that the issue is very genuine. Therefore, it it imperative on our part to ensure that there is a broad consensus and therefore we have consultations, we have a series of consultations, even the last moment - how to draft, whatever would be the exact language. We discussed with Mr Advan;, Leader of the Opposition in the Lok Sabha; Leader of the Opposition Rajya Sabha; my ministerial colleagues and others.
NDTV: Opposition leaders say you are the only leader in the government who would bother to reach out to them, nobody else does.
Pranab Mukherjee: No, (there are) many of them, Parliamentary Affairs Minister is constantly in touch with them. Other leaders also, for instance, apart from the consultation also in the all-party meeting, many of my colleagues, they have discussions, informal discussions with leaders of various political parties, so that their views are also incorporated in the draft.
NDTV: Do you think if you could have brought the Opposition members into the drafting panel, and if you would have done that, you would not have come to this point, may be in the beginning?
Pranab Mukherjee: No, no, those are all in the hind sight. The issue as is started by saying that the agitation was going on, and please remember the time frame. (In) the whole month of April, elections of five states were taken place, it continued up till May. Bengal elections, Assam elections, Kerala elections, Tamil Nadu elections, Pondicherry elections, and all of us were busy. Therefore, the first attempt was to reach Shri Anna Hazare to find out what would satisfy him. When we agreed to the Joint Drafting Committee, at that stage it was thought that let us have the Joint Drafting Committee and in the midst of elections, we had first meeting itself. I remember, we had the first meeting on April 16. I was deeply engaged in the Bengal elections, Assam elections. On April 15, I came back with Mrs Sonia Gandhi to Delhi to attend the meeting on the 16th and again in the evening, went back for the campaign.
NDTV: Is this a crisis, where if the Congress President had been around, there would be perhaps a greatest sense of political leadership? I mean some Opposition leaders have got up and suggested that...
Pranab Mukherjee: Uh?
NDTV: That the fact that Mrs Gandhi affected the party's ability to respond. While the government was responding, the party was feeling, in a sense, leaderless?
Pranab Mukherjee: There is no difference between party and the government. After all, who are we, we are all party members?
NDTV: So let's move on now, to another controversy that is agitating people, that is the Cabinet meeting on the Sports Bill,
Pranabda, where Ajay Maken the Sports Minister, says there was an attempt to bring the accountability into sports. He wants to bring the cricket Board to come under the RTI and we know that so many ministers with cricket links have refused. Don't you think it is the conflict of interest to even attend the Cabinet?
Pranab Mukherjee: I can't make any proceeding of the Cabinet, because all these are confidential, sometime it may come. But as a member of the Cabinet I cannot share what transpired in the Cabinet. The only fact which was reported at the end of the meeting by the official spokesperson, that the minister will redraft the bill and will bring the bill and that draft will be discussed.
NDTV: So, you won't say anything more on the Sports Bill?
Pranab Mukherjee: I can't.
NDTV: Let's move to something you should have a lot and will have a lot to say on the state of the Economy,
Pranabda. Growth figures down to 7.7%. You have said that you are disappointed. What would you attribute this sluggishness to, that seems to have set in to the growth figures?
Pranab Mukherjee: There are 3-4 things. I am disappointed because I expected it to be a little higher. I want to have the higher growth rate. The target that we have fixed is 9% plus or minus 0.25, that is the budgeted figure in place. The growth for the year 2010-11 is 8.5%. Now, I do believe that if you want to address the problem of the poverty, deprivation, and sufferings of the people, we must have inclusive growth at a higher growth figure, higher level of growth. Therefore it is imperative. But what happened during this period, particularly the first quarter, we had to follow to control the inflationary pressure, which is obstinately refusing to come down. RBI has to revise the rates...
NDTV: Interest rates, yes.
Pranab Mukherjee: ... almost continuously, therefore, from the supply side. The demand side it is taken care of to some extent to control the inflationary pressure. From the supply side, we are taking care to remove the supply bottlenecks in some of the important agricultural commodities. But that is beside the point. The factor is that international environment is totally uncertain and unpredictable. High sovereign rate in the Euro zone, which is spreading its shadow over entire Europe, downgrading of the US grading which had overall impact in the world economy, this had some impact. In addition to that, there had been slowdown in the manufacturing sector. Service sector is doing well. Therefore, the figure of the first quarter of the 7.7% compared to 8.8% of the previous first quarter of the last year is disappointing, but at the same time I do hope there are certain good stands. Take the case of IIP and manufacturing sector. IIP growth in the month of June is good. Then FDI. FDI in the month of July is quite encouraging, it is 13.4 billion, and particularly in the June figure of FDI, in one single month, is 5.7% which is the second highest in the 11 months. The investment in the first quarter, results will of course come much later, is much more compared to the last quarter of the previous fiscal year. That means what is happening is, it is going down and it slowly started moving up and if it continues, for example, the export figure in the month of June, that is quite satisfactory, that has been the growth of almost 45% in export growth and you shall have to keep in mind that recovery in Europe is slow for quite some time. American economic recovery is slow for quite sometime. Despite that, the growth in Indian economy indicates that there has been diversification of our export destination to a considerable extent, so these are the indicators. At the same time, I do believe we have to work very hard to achieve the desired growth level.
NDTV: Business chambers like CII are appealing to you to tell the RBI to not hike interest rates right now. Is that under consideration?
Pranab Mukherjee: No, that monetary policy, they will have to take into account here. Fiscal policy and monitory policy are working in close cooperation with each other to ensure that we have the common objective: Reasonable high growth and at the same time acceptable level of inflation. I cannot accept this level of inflation. Food inflation is around 8.56, though it has come down from 22% in the months of February 2010 to June 2011. In February 2010, it was as high as 22%. Food inflation - it has come down to 8.5% in the month of June, but still 8.5% is not acceptable. It will have to be brought down further.
NDTV: There is a perception even among the advisors talking about the dangers of the policy paralysis. A lot of corporate leaders are saying because the government is firefighting on so many fronts, there seems to be a policy paralysis, there is the fear of the CAG and so on. Do you believe,
Pranabda, the policy paralysis is inflicting the business environment today?
Pranab Mukherjee: I don't think the policy paralysis is that much. It is not there. Otherwise the investments would not have come up. Surely, the type of high level of growth, which we had before the financial crisis, that type of growth - 9% growth - we would not have achieved. But at the same time, you have to keep in mind that if you have a major shock in the economy, overnight you cannot recover it. But the flow of FDI clearly indicate and on my address to the Golden Jubilee of the Indian Economic Services, I pointed out that which will be the investment destination. Yes, three economies have done better in growth. India is 7.7, Turkey is 10 per cent plus, China is nine percent plus, Argentina is nine per cent plus. Though India is 7.7%, it is next. Therefore, when European recovery is slow, high sovereign debt crisis is engulfing large number of countries of Europe. When US economy is trying to recover, naturally investment destination would be India. But it will take some time to have that factified in the visible results and impact.
NDTV: Let me ask you a last question. It is also 20 year anniversary of economic reforms and people are saying again and again, why has government not been able to move fast enough on reforms? You don't even have the Left breathing down the neck.
Pranab Mukherjee: But the fact of the matter is I require the support of the other political parties to have my legislation. The reforms, which can be introduced in case of insurance, in the case of pensions, in the case of host of other areas like fiscal sector, require legislation, and for that legislations we require the support of the other political parties. We do not have 274, this is the hard core fact. Therefore, I am trying to ensure support. I am told that Finance Standing Committee has recommended, finalised their recommendations about two important bills which were referred to them for their considerations. I have heard it. Let us wait when they place their report on the table of the House then we can take up the legislation.
NDTV: What is your priority for the economic reforms, what would you like to push though, above all?
Pranab Mukherjee: I want that higher investment, moderate, acceptable level of inflation, and we shall have to all work together. That's why I addressed the Leaders of the Industry in the beginning of this month, August 1, and I got very good response from them. I am working on their suggestions, which they have given. Agriculture would be quite encouraging. I do hope that in the last leg of monsoon, there will be no problem for us. There is a good monsoon and if we have robust agricultural growth over the growth of the last year, and if we create the appropriate climate, which we are trying to do so, for investment, then it would be possible to overcome this crisis. And last point which I would like to drive at, that the reform is a continuing process, it cannot be stop and go. Therefore ,it will be a continuing process, it will have to continue. One set of reforms required, another set of reforms, therefore these are continuing process that should be carried on.
NDTV: Well I don't think there isn't anybody in the government who has a more busy day, in working between firefighting for the government and also managing the Finance Ministry. Thank you so much for joining.
Pranab Mukherjee: Thank you.