New Delhi:
The Junior Minister for Information and Technology says experts have to be consulted on whether porn is provoking sexual violence. "I think we need some consensus as a society if such material causes violence," he told NDTV's Sunetra Choudhury. .
One of the two suspects arrested for raping a 5-year-old in Delhi has reportedly said they watched porn on a mobile phone hours before they abducted and tortured her.
Here is the full transcript of the interview. NDTV: Milind Deora you know there is an issue which everyone's been talking about and today it seems to have an extra amount of urgency because police are talking about this gruesome rape that has taken place of this 5-year-old. Now what's concerning people is that police is saying the accused, the two accused were watching pornography on their cell phones and they seem to believe that it would have triggered them. That was one of the factors triggering them to go out, look for this child, who was obviously, she was a neighbour, she was an easy victim and then cause it. Now as some one you must have been, you're on twitter as well, Milind as someone who is, you know, kind of deals with this issue of internet pornography keeps coming out do you think there is a link?
Milind Deora: Well I actually don't have a view on whether some one watching certain material, that maybe legal in some places but might be obscene to somebody else, can trigger a violent streak in some one. I don't have personal evidence to suggest that, but I think since we are on the topic of whether pornography can lead to violence and atrocities against women and children, we in the Ministry of Communications and IT, if the government decides to censor it in some ways we will implement that. We'll have to find ways to do that with the internet with technologies etc. But in terms of a larger debate in India on whether pornography causes, leads to violence, I don't think anyone should have a knee- jerk reaction and just say it does and lets ban it, because we are a liberal society we don't want to get in the space of censoring content and I think that the best people who can answer that are really people like social scientists, psychologists, sociologists who understand the co-relation between watching something like that and it leading to violence
NDTV: You know last week as well in Supreme Court one of the lawyers, there is a petition now and the Chief Justice of India is now hearing that petition and that petition seems to suggest, and it linked, gave a lot of figures about internet pornography and things like that. They said that there is a direct link. Now they have now given notice to your Ministry, to the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting. Is that a kind of is that a tricky area to go into, do you think?
Milind Deora: Well not really. I think if the Supreme Court or the Judiciary takes a decision and passes an order, which we have to follow; the government has to follow, we will obviously do that. But I just believe that these kind of things, because again I go back to my experience when I was a student in the US and I remember and even now it happens, even of late, whenever there is gun related crime in the United States and specially a young person who's gone out and taken his father's fire arms and fired in his school, they always open up a certain debate about whether a certain kind of genre of music is encouraging gun violence
NDTV: You mean rap and things like that?
Milind Deora: Maybe. Back in the days they were seen as gangster rap and things like that and then whether violent video games are leading to gun related violence and whether they should be banned now. As far as I know they've raised the bar in terms of what age group can watch those video games, can play those video games, so I think that most of the violent video games are only allowed for people who are above the age of 18, who are adults. So that's a decision they have taken. I am sure they took that decision in consultation with, again as I said social scientists, and I think that's how we should move about it, because again coming back to the larger thing of controlling censoring content, whether its on the internet or off the internet, I think what kind of content should be censored that requires a much larger debate. If somebody is obviously posting content that can inflame, you know, create anger between communities...
NDTV: Which has been a tricky for the government...
Milind Deora: Though I don't' think anybody really is, you know, saying that let that be online, let that be offline. Generally there is consensus that it should be removed from the Internet and maybe some one should pay a price for having posted that content. But in the area of pornography what is the co-relation between pornography and leading to violence? That I think needs to be explored much further. I am not a social scientist, I am not in a particular ministry that can pass a judgement on that, but if you ask me my personal opinion I do think we have to find ways, given the fact that it is so prevalent on the internet to maybe keep it away from children. So children shouldn't perhaps have access to, should definitely not have access to pornographic material. Now how do you do that on the Internet? I am sure we can find ways to improve technologies but that's really the area that I would say, at a personal level, perhaps needs regulated. The larger scope of does pornography lead to violence I think requires much debate from experts.
NDTV: But is it possible, to regulate the internet and for the government to do that?
Milind Deora: Well it is difficult. There are there are proxy servers, there are ways of, you know, going beyond. Even if a country has domestic regulation the Internet is still largely a global medium and global platform where the people can access information, share information. But perhaps, I think Sunetra, we need some consensus as a society in terms of, you know, does pornographic material firstly incite violence? Once we establish that it does or it doesn't then we can find out ways and methods of curbing it or controlling it
NDTV: Your government actually, you know, got a lot of, like I was reading up on that and a lot of people felt that, you know, one instance is this popular thing which in India some people develop because Savita Bhabi, which was an Indian pornographic comic material and MHA went ahead and banned it. And some people felt why is that why should that happen if consumption of it is not banned in India, why should that happen?
Milind Deora: Well as I said that I am not in a position to, I am not in the ministry that decides what to ban and what not to ban. We in the ministry of IT and Communications often get flak for deciding what to ban. We actually never decide something should be banned. We always follow orders from different ministries
NDTV: So the MHA would decide that?
Milind Deora: We provide technological inputs to different ministries. But personally I believe that all content, whether it is a book that is perhaps talking about a leader that's revered by many thousands and millions of people in India, whether its a controversial form of art, I think we in India censor things with a knee jerk reaction, and we tend to just say this seems to be bad, let me ban it and we often do that without consulting important stake holders in the process. So if it's something that can cause violence; that can cause communal tension, it is important to consult important people in the law and order department, perhaps ex-bureaucrats. If it's something in this area of pornography its important to consult social scientists, psychologists. They need to actually tell the government whether banning pornographic material is the solution or whether improving, you know, getting people to debate this issue, sex education in their homes, in their families is the solution. Personally I would, my personal view is I would tilt on the latter. I would say that the government can do only so much; the government can initiate important legislation. In the case of, after Nirbhaya's case we did do that in record time. The police have to, of course, be more responsive, be more accessible. The Judiciary of course has its work cut out for itself, has to deliver justice as soon as possible, try an accused as quickly as possible. But I think one thing that we don't seem to be talking about is what are we as individuals and what are we as a society doing within our own homes, what are we doing within our own families?
NDTV: You mean to change the mindset of rape?
Milind Deora: To change mindsets in our work places I often hear in New Delhi, because I come from Mumbai, I often hear the debate of, you know, there is a, you know, different, it's a confluence of different people from different parts of the country and there is a moving population and that leads to people living in shanty's and other things that causes this. But I still believe the crux of the problem really comes down onto what we are doing within our own homes, within our own families. And again coming back to the analogy of the US, whenever this debate happens, whether about gun control, today in the United States you are looking at a debate where they are actually looking at banning guns all together after....
NDTV: Although they seem to be very far from doing that
Milind Deora: ... perhaps, but I still I fundamentally believe that of course you should curb how easily, how accessible firearms are in the market. But in the end it ultimately comes down to what you are doing within your families and your homes. If you live in a home where your parents don't really care to raise, they are too busy working or your father is an alcoholic, he is beating up your mother, the child isn't going to grow up with the right set of values, regardless of whether he or she is exposed to certain kind of obscene material violent games etc or even violent TV shows. So I think the crux of the problem really comes down to how do we do that within our homes. Of course the government and the judiciary and other things have responsibilities, but we shouldn't take away that responsibility also
NDTV: But do you think, do you see how some of the anger that people are feeling that, you know, yesterday I was at a protest at Jantar Mantar and people were really, really upset. There were people, students and everyone else; a lot of international organizations, just came down to voice their kind of thing. And they felt that nothing had changed since December 16. Do you see, you empathise with that kind of frustration that people are feeling; also because of the fact that police seem that they hadn't learnt any lessons? Do you see where that is coming from?
Milind Deora: Well I, look I sympathise with young protestors who go out. I don't think every protestor has a political agenda. I think some protestors do it because they really want to see a better India for themselves, a safer India for themselves, for their children for their sisters. Yes, the police perhaps didn't behave in as responsive a manner as they should have. But from what I understand the errant cops have been suspended. But I also believe that in this case when the five year old girl got brutally raped and people are protesting, I do think that while people should demand more accountability from the police, from even fast, speedy justice from Judiciary, I do think that there is an element of, also we as a society protesting against perhaps our own apathy, perhaps against our own negligence, perhaps against our own inability to, you know, discuss this thread bare and tackle it within our own homes and within our own families
NDTV: But so the, a lot of people are saying that symbolically and the fact that there have been so many cases that the Delhi Commissioner of Police should go or that the Home Minister should change. That you don't find as a legitimate demand?
Milind Deora: Look, I think again these are knee jerk reactions. Sack somebody, have death sentence, have capital punishment, maybe capital punishment. May be capital has a small argument, but symbolism is important. Symbolism to some extend does build and create confidence amongst the public, it does deter potential criminals. But again I don't think that while those issues are important to tackle and debate, I still think that we should put the issue of what are we, as a society, doing?
NDTV: Because the Congress has taken always the lead in that. I remember after 26/11 instantly you saw the Home Minister changing. So Congress has set a precedent that way, which is perhaps why perhaps they are saying why aren't we saying that now, why is it that a terror attack happened?
Milind Deora: I think there is a big difference between, say 26/11, because I remember it happened in my constituency, I was there with the protestors and I demanded that kind of justice along with the protestors ...
NDTV: You did as well yes...
Milind Deora: ... because to me that was a case of it may or may not be proven yet. But it was a case of, to some extent of maybe, somewhat a maybe, some intelligence over sight, so it did require heads to roll. I still think that the rape of this 5-year old girl did require a much more responsive police force. I do think that the police have to do much more in making themselves accessible. If we say that there are many cases going unreported in India, the only way they can go report it is if the police become more accessible. Now how do they become accessible? It's a no brainer. You need the police thane to become a more accessible place for a woman, who is been victimized, to go there, and say, look I want justice and these are the perpetrators who did this to me. So I do think we have a lot more work to do, not just in Delhi, but perhaps police departments all over the country. But I personally believe that the debate about the Home Minister should resign, I think those are symbolic debates that I don't think will actually fix the core problem. What the Home Minister, when the last protest happened in December, end of December, people said that we need a strong law. The Home Minister, to his credit, piloted the passage of a very strong law, which got bi-partisan support.
NDTV: Well you know that is arguable because, you know, some people are saying that Justice Verma, yes he delivered, gave a very strong thing which was, as you said, 'cos you take in all the stakeholders, which was, you know, feted by everyone saying brilliant, but government implemented a much kind of watered down kind of...
Milind Deora: Well you know these are starts, these are important legislation and I think we have started off on the on the right. We, we in some ways gave assurance to the public that look we are with you, we will do whatever we can to give a strong feasible workable law and we will pass it. And I think to the credit of the entire Parliamentary system, including the Opposition parties, everybody came together and passed it. So the political fraternity is capable of rising to the occasion and actually delivering justice and implementing and passing a strong law. I do believe that there is, even the government in the larger framework of the government, including the Judiciary, of course there is much more work to be done. Of course the police need to, as I said, get more accessible, more responsive. Of course the Judiciary has to, may be take up these on a fast track basis and ensure that people are tried very quickly so that justice is delivered. I don't deny any of those things. But I just believe that, in terms of the fact that a lot of these thing might be social evils that have existed in our society for many, many decades, they may not have come to the forefront, perhaps because TV media wasn't as active 20 years ago, 30 years ago or 40 years ago, as they are today. I do believe to some extent that this maybe a social evil that has existed in our society, been prevalent in our villages, in our cities for many, many years and maybe it is coming out now. So to me a large part of winning the battle against atrocities against women and children will also come from within our homes and within our family place
NDTV: Speaking about the government and everyone's frustration, and you are saying that perhaps that doesn't solve anything. Another thing that keeps getting raised by civil society, citizens and you see this not just in TV debates, in a lot of editorials and things like that as well is of the leadership. Many people are saying that why don't we see, and someone especially like Rahul Gandhi, the young leadership, especially in December and now; why is that we need the young people, it was the young people who were leading the protest at Vijay Chowk, what would you say to that criticism?
Milind Deora: Well I would say it is not that the young people in Congress party, especially Rahul Gandhi and a lot of us, were not active in trying to get the government to respond faster to this issue. May be one can argue that some more people should have been at India Gate along with the protesters to express their solidarity. But I do remember that Sheila Dikshit did go out there and she got heckled and booed. But there is an argument to be made that politicians should come at the moment of crisis, but at the same time, when you go there you get criticised. I will give you another unrelated example, whenever there is a terror attack that happens, at one level people say why do VIPs come and visit that spot, they are disturbing the relief efforts, they are disturbing the relief efforts, they are disturbing people from gathering intelligence, which I firmly believe is true, but at the same time if a VIP or a politician doesn't go and visit that spot, you will face criticism that you haven't gone and visited that spot. You haven't gone to the hospital and expressed solidarity with the victims, you haven't given a signal to the...
NDTV: Now that's valid, I will give you that. But Milind, don't you think now Rahul Gandhi, especially now that he has taken on a larger role, he is the number 2 in the party, why don't we hear from him on these issues? For instance you are saying that I want more stakeholders to think and decide as to what leads to rape and all. How come we don't know Rahul Gandhi's views?
Milind Deora: Well that's only for him to answer, how much he wants to engage, through the media with people
NDTV: It doesn't have to be through the media, even in coming out and meeting the people
Milind Deora: Well I will tell you my experience of seeing him function, since you are talking about him in particular, he is to some extent a silent worker and he is somebody who knows how to get a job done and who knows how to draw the attention of the government, since the Party is in power, to important issues. I will give you a small example, post 26/11, a part of me felt that senior leaders of the Congress Party should go there and express solidarity with people, because that is one of the first times that urban India woke up to demanding more accountability from the political class, not only from the political party, that was ruling, but also from the Opposition, that don't politicise terrorism. But I saw someone like him working behind the scenes to give political support to those in power, to say go out and do the right thing, we are with you, there is no reason why politically we should not support the right decision. Setting up of the NIA, I saw him personally meeting people in the Home Ministry, top brass, even talking to me, who is an MP of the local area, talking to then CM, trying to get things moving, trying to give, in his way, political support to those who are in power, those who are running governments, that go out and do the right thing, we in the party will support you in whatever you do. So I think he functions in a different way than in what other people function. I think there is a range of style of functioning for all politicians. Some prefer to do it silently, some prefer to thump their chest and say I am doing this; I am great and deserve much more credit than is due. These are personality driven things, I think different people in different professions, whether you are a businessmen, whether you are a professional working in a company, there are some who say I have done this much work, but I want to thump my chest and say I have done so much more. But there are some who have done so much, but will say I am not there to take credit I am out there to make sure that things happen and try my level best. But I do agree that in the profession that we are in, in politics, and this is not just an India related phenomenon, this is a global phenomenon, increasingly with TV media becoming so prevalent, social media becoming so prevalent, millions and millions of people logging on to the Internet, I do believe that in politics today, anywhere in the world, especially in India, doing work is as important as communicating about that work; or let me put it the other way round communicating about the work you are doing is as important as sitting back and doing that
NDTV: You are making that sound negative, that's not what I asked. I asked, and I understand 26/ 11 and for the first time we are hearing how he was involved. What about Dec 16, what about after that, when everybody came, people felt that how is that the how is that young leaders like Rahul Gandhi, why are we not seeing them in the protest, because these are contentious issues and there is a churning happening now, why don't we hear from him? And this is not about communicating with us, it's about being out there and communicating, like you have public meetings, people and perhaps the youth and their kind of disappointment with the political class, don't you think Rahul Gandhi should also take the responsibility?
Milind Deora: Well look, like I said I am not here to speak on behalf of Rahul Gandhi, he is the Vice President of our team, he has a clear action plan, which you will start to see play out in the next few months, where he will engage with different audiences. One audience like you said is to go out and have a public meeting, another audience is perhaps on social media, another audience is people who perhaps watch TV channels
NDTV: He will be on Twitter?
Milind Deora: Well I don't know if he will be on Twitter. He will directly and indirectly begin to communicate with different mediums, platforms much more aggressively. But having said that, since you are saying that, public wants to know what were young people doing, I gave you the point. In some ways it was the situation of damned if you do, damned if you don't. Sheila Dikshit was a case in point, her visit to India Gate, but it is the young and old people in our Party who are equally concerned about what happened in December and what happened a few weeks before. It's not that we are not commenting, we are not out there on television, we are not tweeting enough, doesn't mean that we are not concerned enough, doesn't mean that we are not putting pressure on the establishment. Lets do more, let's bring all stakeholders together, we understand fully and are cognisant of the fact that India has changed. That urban India demands more answers, that this is a very important political issue. Secondly perhaps we need to go out there and put a healing touch. That is as important as saying that we are putting the right systems in place, and I think we also are beginning to understand there are different mediums that are demanding much more from us, much more of our attention, much more involvement, and we are slowly understanding that challenge is also an opportunity to engage with people, to calm people down, and to bring people together. Lets work together, let's put our heads together, and lets find solutions to it
NDTV: That sounds really encouraging indeed. Do you think that a lot of the demands that are happening now, reacting to that kind of public demands that are happening, of everyone saying that he should be a PM candidate, you know, should you go into elections with a PM candidate? Looking at 2014 as a personal opinion, do you think, because right now, no one knows, because we have heard from the Prime Minister who says I am going to work out my term, and both options, I am not ruling anything out, that's what he has said?
Milind Deora: Can I tell you my personal opinion? My personal experience is that I remember my first election in 2004 and I remember the BJP, their core campaign issue in the 2004 election...
NDTV: India shining?
Milind Deora: No, not just India shining. It was, we have a Prime Ministerial candidate, who is Congress' Prime Ministerial candidate? Exactly what they are saying now. That's why should we tell you who the Prime Ministerial candidate is. Their stand almost a decade ago was completely the opposite. They were criticising the Congress Party saying, who is your Prime Ministerial candidate, when are you going to announce your Prime Ministerial Candidate; and my personal opinion is, I think the public of India are very bright, there are very experienced voters. They know broadly who is the leader of a particular party, who is broadly the face of the party, who broadly that party is rallying behind and rallying around and therefore overtly or covertly...
NDTV: They understand the Congress
Milind Deora: No, the Prime Ministerial candidate of any party is already out there for the public to see and people will vote on those lines and I believe, before even the public vote on those lines, the party will get geared up on those lines; coalition partners will agree or disagree on those lines. That is beginning to happen already. So in Congress' case whether the incumbent continues if we come back to power, whether Rahul Gandhi becomes Prime Minister, those are issues that are already in the public domain. Those are not issues, which a coalition partner, for either of those candidates, has expressed any objection. So we don't have any controversy within our own coalition partners. Within the UPA there is no controversy, within the Congress Party there is no controversy. It's for other parties and other coalitions to get their act together and that same story that they used in 2004 is coming back to haunt them today.
NDTV: But didn't it work better in 2009 where Sonia Gandhi had said that the Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh is the candidate for 2009, did it work better then?
Milind Deora: But Sunetra there is a lot of time for the elections, there is a year for the elections. I am sure we in the party will also begin to provide more clarity, more objectivity on that. I think the reason this debate has come to the forefront today is because in the Opposition party you have a particular individual who is projecting himself as the Prime Ministerial candidate, and as a result their coalition partners are shying away from them and are finding it difficult to continue with them. That is why this debate has come to the forefront and that is why the media is also putting pressure on UPA that can you please disclose your Prime Ministerial candidate. But we have a Prime Minister, who is the Prime Minister as we speak today. So I am sure in time, as the elections get closer, you will find senior leaders in our party, perhaps even the incumbent Prime Minister, state their position and make it very clear and very objective.
NDTV: Some of the young MPs in Congress have gone ahead and said very clearly that we want Rahul Gandhi to become PM in 2014, would you say the same?
Miliind Deora: Well I think that what young MPs are expressing or any MP in the Congress Party is expressing is really...
NDTV: ..some senior MPs as well?
Milind Deora: I think what people in the party are doing is perhaps channelising the voice of party workers and I think the voice of the party worker is that the Prime Minister, Manmohan Singh has done an outstanding job in the last 9-10 years. There have been difficult economic situations in the last few years in our country. We believe that a lot of those were not because of bad policy decisions or because of mismanagement of the economy, but largely because we are a globalized economy and we are affected by what happens globally with regards to crude oil prices etc, but we are very happy with the way he has performed in terms of the economy, both in terms of foreign policy and in many other areas, I think even the security areas. But we also understand that India is a young country, we also understand that young India wants a young representation. They want to see someone who is younger, who will perhaps give younger India a much louder voice, and in that sense we feel that someone like Rahul Gandhi can do a much better job in the sense of now actually representing the youth.
NDTV: ..aspirations?
Milind Deora: But I just think, personally if you ask me, when I was asked this question a few years ago also, I was very keen that he got into government much earlier. But I still think that 2014 as we move ahead, whether its Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, whether Rahul Gandhi, and I believe that we will come back to power.
NDTV: Who will come to power?
Milind Deora: Congress Party will come back to power. I think we will represent the voice of young India much more assertively, much more energetically. I think there are a lot of lessons that we have also learnt in the last decade, social media for one. Social media is something that didn't exist when we came to power in 2004. It didn't exist in previous NDA governments and I think that a lot of flack that the Congress Party gets and the Government of India gets is also because we are dealing with a newer set of aspirations, a newer set of mediums to communicate with and we are getting our act together in these areas. We may have been a bit slow in embracing technology and we may have been a bit slow in communicating effectively, but I think we are doing the right things. The Prime Minister for instance, you always say, when will Rahul Gandhi get on Twitter, when will Rahul Gandhi get on the Internet? The Prime Minister has a Twitter ID...
NDTV: But he doesn't tweet
Milind Deora: He may not tweet directly but so are other leaders in other parties who don't tweet directly. But the point is he is using a medium. He may not have the time to tweet directly but he is using an important medium of the future to communicate with young people who are out there. So we are not a party that is averse to these things. I am sure that when Rahul Gandhi takes on a much more important role, perhaps even in government, he will use these mediums
NDTV: Okay, thanks so much and obviously you have got a very clear answer of what you and other MPs want - Rahul Gandhi as Prime Minister in 2014. Thank you very much for speaking with us.
Milind Deora: Thank you Sunetra, thank you.