New Delhi : Here is the full transcript of the interview with senior Congress leader Digvijaya Singh:
NDTV: Hello and welcome to this special episode of The Buck Stops Here. Well, the Government is racing against time to try and bring and pass the Lokpal Bill in the Winter Session of Parliament. The Cabinet will now be meeting, in all likelihood, tomorrow afternoon. As the Government works the midnight oil to present amendments to the earlier draft of the Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare is not satisfied. Not yet anyway. Amidst reports that he will be watching the Parliamentary proceedings when the Lokpal debate does take place, so far he is standing firm on his announcement that he will be going on a fast and an agitation from the 27th of this month. Can the Congress afford another round of agitation by Anna Hazare? Especially with UP elections drawing close? Today, on the programme to discuss all this and more, someone who has never pulled his punches, our newsmaker today, Digvijaya Singh.
Digvijaya Singh: Well, I don't know about that but I am the favourite punching bag of all.
Digvijaya Singh: Anna, I respect him a lot.
Digvijaya Singh: Yes. I would still do it when I meet him. Unfortunately, he has not met me, or I have not met him rather.
Digvijaya Singh: No. But...
Digvijaya Singh: But there is no need. He has taken a stance that I think is quite apparent, now that he has been surrounded by all those who don't like the Congress Party, who don't like Sonia Gandhi, Rahul Gandhi, and this has become apparent now.
Digvijaya Singh: Well, to some extent yes. But now the fact remains that when he, sort of, came out of his fast, he laid three conditions. Number one, the C class officers must be included. Number two, there should be a Citizen's Charter. Number three, there should be Lokayukta, Lokpals in the states.
NDTV: These were conditions accepted by Parliament in the sense of the House resolution.
Digvijaya Singh: This is what I am saying. And all three conditions the Government must honour. After all, it was a unanimous resolution of both Houses. But at the same time, under the Indian Constitution, can Anna take upon himself the responsibility of framing the law? It is the authority of the Parliament, the collective wisdom of the Parliament, which shall frame the Lokpal. And I think Anna should understand this and not really, sort of, take a position that "You accept every word that I say verbatim, otherwise I am going to go on a fast."
NDTV: But given that these three points that you have raised were Parliament's assurance to the country, not just to Anna Hazare but to the country
Digvijaya Singh: I totally agree. I totally agree.
NDTV: Why then, for example, would the Standing Committee of Parliament produce a draft which, for example, did not bring the Group C officers under the purview of the Lokpal. I mean, this just seems to be going against the grain of Parliament's promises to the country.
Digvijaya Singh: But you must ...
NDTV: Or the Prime Minister, for example, the inclusion of the Prime Minister.
Digvijaya Singh: But you must understand. The Standing Committee gives its recommendations but it is the Parliament which frames the law. And there is a unanimity, I am sure, amongst all political parties to include and honour all the three conditions which they had accepted. And that is that.
NDTV: Digvijaya Singh, the question ...
Digvijaya Singh: And beyond that, I think, there is a consensus also in the UPA, which I read from the newspapers and the media, that even they are, with certain safeguards, prepared to bring the Prime Minister under the ambit of the Lokpal, which is a good sign.
NDTV: If what you say is so common-sensical, "Leave it to Parliament." Why does the Government at every point, seem to be starting with very grand proclamations, starting with the kind of statements that you are making, but when it comes to the crunch, it surrenders. It buckles. It is accepted that Anna Hazare has caught the imagination of the public and put the Government on the back foot. Firmly and squarely on the back foot.
Digvijaya Singh: Why do you forget Barkha, that it was Congress Party President Mrs. Sonia Gandhi, who in her speech in Burari in the AICC Session said "We would like to have a strong Lokpal Bill as soon as possible."
NDTV: But if it were not for Anna Hazare ...
Digvijaya Singh: One second. One second. One second. At that time Anna Hazare was not in the picture.
NDTV: Nor did the Lokpal Bill ever see the light of day.
Digvijaya Singh: No. No. She had given this task to two members of the National Advisory Council, who have got a great credibility among the so called civil society; Aruna Roy, Harsh Mander. And they had prepared a draft. Today also, I must confess, although I don't agree with whatever they say, but my contention is that the draft prepared by Aruna Roy is much more practical than what Anna's team has produced. And Anna's team has produced 15 different drafts from the very beginning. So therefore, I think, let us not only talk of Anna's draft. There is Aruna Roy's draft also. So, I think, we should, all members who had, all institutions who have something to say about Lokpal were given an opportunity. And they were given an opportunity before the Standing Committee. Their statements have been recorded. All parties have got together and are in the mode of deliberations. They have gone past that. Now leave it to the wisdom of Parliament to frame a strong and implementable Lokpal.
NDTV: Before we come to the specifics of some of the contentious issues, I ask you the same question. The question is, the Congress says this. People like yourself are amongst those that are blunt about it, but it seems that politically your options are not too many. The fact of the matter is that if it were not for Anna Hazare's imminent agitation at the end of this month, Parliament and the Government would not be scrambling to pass the Lokpal. Isn't that true? Would you at least give him credit for that? He has set the deadline for your Government.
Digvijaya Singh: To some extent, yes.
NDTV: Why has that happened? Is it a failure of politics? Is it a failure of leadership? Is it mishandling?
Digvijaya Singh: This is the essence of democracy, Barkha. The essence of democracy is that the Government in power has to listen to people and people's suggestions, take note of that, and within the ambit of the Constitution, and the political scene, they have to honour whatever is possible and implementable.
NDTV: Would you accept that Anna Hazare has become a kind of lightning rod for the public disenchantment with your Government?
Digvijaya Singh: I would not call him a lightning rod.
NDTV: With all politicians, but especially your Government?
Digvijaya Singh: As far as I am concerned, certainly not.
NDTV: So what do you think he symbolizes? What is Anna Hazare for you?
Digvijaya Singh: Well, Anna is a well-meaning person who has done good work in watershed management, in rural development, but now he has people around who have intense dislike for the Congress Party.
NDTV: Which people do you mean? Why don't you name them?
Digvijaya Singh: Arvind Kejriwal. Kiran Bedi. Shanti Bhushan. Prashant Bhushan.
NDTV: Arvind Kejriwal, and all of them, when this question is put to them, they say "We are not anti-Congress, but we believe that the Government in power has to be more accountable than the Opposition." Surely that's common sense?
Digvijaya Singh: Exactly. But they see no corruption in state governments? 95% of the corruption in this country takes place in the states.
NDTV: Why? They differed with Nitish Kumar on his Lokayukta Bill. And Nitish Kumar is not a Congress leader.
Digvijaya Singh: One second, one second. Let me complete. They have never questioned or agitated against the corruption of the Karnataka Chief Minister. They have never agitated against the corruption of the Uttarakhand Government. They have never agitated ...
NDTV: Uttarakhand they say has brought in a model Lokayukta Bill.
Digvijaya Singh: Listen to me. This is post removal of the corrupt Chief Minister. But, tell me, did Baba Ramdev, who has an ashram in Uttarakhand, who wants to bring black money, did he ever raise a voice against the corruption in Uttarakhand?
NDTV: Let me put it to you like this...
Digvijaya Singh: Or Sri Sri Ravi Shankar Maharaj, has he ever raised the issue of corruption in the Karnataka Government?
NDTV: Let me put it to you like this. Even if you see, a bulk of Opposition parties have backed the Anna Hazare movement, and why not? All is fair in love and politics. Would you at least concede that politically, and let's look at this through the prism of politics, Anna Hazare has underlined the failure of politics when it comes to political leadership of your Government. Let's give you a small example. We saw Anna Hazare overseeing a public debate in the national capital on the Lokpal Bill. We saw major opposition leaders from Arun Jaitley to Brinda Karat to Sharad Yadav even, who was so scathing in Parliament when the debate took place, attending this. Do you not think the Congress missed an opportunity? You wrote on Twitter that the Congress is not shy of debates. I said Digvijaya Singh should have been sent for the debate. Why didn't you go? Did you volunteer yourself?
Digvijaya Singh: Barkha, listen...
NDTV: No, seriously. Serious question.
Digvijaya Singh: No. Listen to me. First of all, why don't you give credit to UPA government...
NDTV: For what?
Digvijaya Singh: For co-opting Anna's team into the Drafting Committee with five central ministers which is unprecedented, unheard of...
NDTV: And then disregarding all of their recommendations.
Digvijaya Singh: One second, one second. Because of which all opposition parties were mad against, were angry with us, that why did you have to give credibility and credence to these people who are no one, you know, in the system? Why did you not consult us earlier? So, I think, don't forget that the first support that Anna's team got was from the Congress Party.
NDTV: Till he was arrested. Till Anna Hazare was arrested in what has to count as the biggest blunder made by this Government.
Digvijaya Singh: Barkha. You see, this is not a political decision, it is an administrative decision...
NDTV: Come on Sir.
Digvijaya Singh: Why "Come on"?
NDTV: That explanation. That explanation was attempted on the crackdown on Baba Ramdev's supporters and that explanation has been contested by no less a lawyer than Rajeev Dhawan. As a friend of the court, as amicus curiae, he said, "The Delhi Police was asked to execute a political order." Now if you are going to try that same theory with Anna Hazare's arrest then you are being dishonest. And that is not your style. You are pretty blunt usually.
Digvijaya Singh: Barkha, I am not being dishonest, but I am stating a fact, a sort of a legal position. The Delhi Police Commissioner is accountable to the Lieutenant Governor of Delhi, number one. Number two, it is his responsibility to maintain law and order in Delhi. He does not have to take any orders from the Home Minister.
NDTV: But it was a mistake wasn't it? To arrest Anna Hazare was a mistake.
Digvijaya Singh: You see...
NDTV: Grave mistake.
Digvijaya Singh: You see, I will not comment on that because, Supreme, because this is an issue which is under the domain of the Police Commissioner and the Lieutenant Governor.
NDTV: Ok, ok. But let's discuss...
Digvijaya Singh: And it was not a political decision.
NDTV: Let's discuss, let's leave that aside because you won't convince me and I won't convince you. Let's discuss a missed opportunity at that public debate in Delhi. We have Congress leaders, some of them brave enough, to come on to TV studios and argue with Team Anna. What's the problem in doing it at a public debate?
Digvijaya Singh: Why should we do it?
NDTV: Why not? This is a democracy. The people have a right to hear your views.
Digvijaya Singh: Mr Salman Khurshid...
NDTV: Did take part in a television debate...
Digvijaya Singh: Went to Kolkata and debated at the Saturday Club. Now, again, there was no harm in going there. But it was a political decision taken by the Congress Party.
NDTV: Were you invited?
Digvijaya Singh: No.
NDTV: By Team Anna?
Digvijaya Singh: First of all, I am not a good debater. I am a political man.
NDTV: If you had been invited would you have gone?
Digvijaya Singh: With the permission of the Congress President certainly yes. But not without taking her permission. But the fact remains, the unanimity amongst the political leaders at that debate was, 'Don't challenge the authority of Parliament.'
NDTV: Okay.
Digvijaya Singh: That is it.
NDTV: Let me ask you one last question on the Anna Hazare challenge as it were. Anna Hazare has now targeted Rahul Gandhi, saying that the watered down version of the Bill had to do with Rahul Gandhi. Why does that make you laugh? Rahul Gandhi did intervene at the last moment, asked for a constitutional status like the Election Commission to the Lokpal. It's getting it because Rahul Gandhi asked for it.
Digvijaya Singh: Yes. Which was first...
NDTV: He intervened late and did not participate in the debate thereafter.
Digvijaya Singh: Barkha, just see the contradiction in itself. When Mr Rahul Gandhi said that "Lokpal should a given a constitutional status" Okay? Anna's team rejected it outright. And now they are supporting it. Now, after supporting what Rahul Gandhiji had said, they say that he has watered down the whole thing.
NDTV:How involved is Rahul?
Digvijaya Singh: In fact, he has given greater authority and stature to the Lokpal than they had proposed.
NDTV: How involved is he in the deliberations? Because many people have criticized Rahul Gandhi for intervening at the last moment and then walking away from the conversation.
Digvijaya Singh: Barkha, you know how this thing functions? What I know of Rahul Gandhi, he is not at all interfering in governance. He has been given a task by the Congress President to look after the NSUI Student's Wing and the Youth Wing of the Congress Party, which he is doing excellently because he has brought democracy in NSUI and Youth Congress. We have got democratically elected people amongst the students and the youth and at the same time given the task of a campaign in the elections. So therefore he is doing his task. He has no role to play in governance.
NDTV: Why do you make outlandish statements like "Anna Hazare will be the presidential candidate of the non-BJP parties"?
Digvijaya Singh: Well...
NDTV: What is your basis for making a statement like this?
Digvijaya Singh: Media. My, my...
NDTV: Your sources are us?
Digvijaya Singh: My sources in the media told me that this is possible. So I threw a question which they answered. No, it's not correct. So I am quite satisfied.
NDTV: So do you withdraw that statement? Do you regret some of the statements that you have made?
Digvijaya Singh: Why should I withdraw? I said I am satisfied. Why should I withdraw? I am satisfied.
NDTV: Last question. Do you believe your party can politically afford, and I am asking you a political question because you are an old-fashioned, true-blood politician, can you politically afford another agitation by Anna Hazare?
Digvijaya Singh: We have no problem.
NDTV: So if Anna Hazare fasts again no problem?
Digvijaya Singh: No problem at all.
NDTV: You wouldn't appeal to him to not fast?
Digvijaya Singh: Well, we would appeal to Anna not to fast, but if he wants to fast why don't they allow Mr. Kejriwal to fast? Why shouldn't Kiran Bedi fast? They are younger people. Why should we harass poor fellow Anna Hazare? In such cold winter of Delhi he should be asked to be made to sit and they keep on having the best of the meals and poor Anna Hazare is fasting?
NDTV: But isn't his fast setting a deadline for your Government? That's why Parliament's being extended. Acknowledge it.
Digvijaya Singh: Well, this is being done because the Parliament gave a commitment, both Houses that we shall pass the Lokpal Bill in this session. So, it's a commitment made by the Parliament to the Nation which they want to commit.
NDTV: One of the things is that people are watching, and the public is taking this away, is that the Government does not want to give up the control of the CBI. We've had former CBI Directors on show after show saying, 'If the CBI is not made independent, the Lokpal is meaningless.'
Digvijaya Singh: Let me tell you Barkha, give me one instance of any authority in the world which has the responsibility of registering the complaint, which has the authority of investigation and which has the authority of judgement? Give me one instance in the world.
NDTV: But at least the appointment of the Director, at least the appointment of personnel, can be done in a non-political, independent way. A collegium, as has been suggested by the BJP, of the Prime Minister, the Leader of the Opposition and the Head of the Lokpal.
Digvijaya Singh: They have found a way out and I think you will see it in the draft.
NDTV: All right. Let's move on to another big embarrassment for your party and the Government. We heard Rahul Gandhi in his election speeches in UP talking about FDI in retail. How stalling that is actually going to hurt the farmer. Once again, Digvijaya Singh, this is a question about leadership. If the Government believed so firmly in bringing an FDI in retail, A, why did not we hear from Rahul Gandhi earlier; B, why did the Prime Minister not stand firm?
Digvijaya Singh: FDI is good for the country. It is good for the producer. It is good for the consumer. After all, in our country, we have the most inefficient supply side retail mechanism in the world, where the cost of the middlemen between the producer and the consumer is the highest in the world. So therefore, we want more investment to come in, we want better technology to come in. So therefore we want FDI to come in.
NDTV: But was this badly handled again? Not consulting allies or not selling the idea to the public? Even the Prime Minister said that in his interview to Bloomberg.
Digvijaya Singh: To a certain extent you are right. You know, first of all, UPA I had a functional co-ordination committee which unfortunately UPA II did not create, but now they have created. So I think these issues could have been settled. And I think Mamata also will understand, ultimately, that 100% FDI in retail doesn't hurt anyone. It doesn't even hurt the neighbourhood shops.
NDTV: But once again I must say that conspiracy theories ranging from, this was a diversion created to take attention away from the Lokpal, to our basic question, does the Congress not know its politics? Why would you introduce such a decisive Executive decision while Parliament is in session, without your allies on board, and then not put your weight behind it? Not even have the spine to put your weight behind it?
Digvijaya Singh: Barkha, this has been debated at every level since the last three years. The suggestions have been taken from Chief Ministers of each state. Some of them have not responded but most of them have responded.
NDTV: But you had opposition from your own ally. Forget the BJP.
Digvijaya Singh: You see BJP Chief Ministers, Narendra Modi, and at the same time Karnataka Chief Minister and their ally, the Punjab Chief Minister, are all for FDI in retail. Now, BJP itself, it's a master of double speak. They proposed Nuclear Accountability Bill, they opposed it. They proposed VAT and then they opposed it. They proposed GST, now they have opposed it. And they proposed FDI, they have opposed it.
NDTV: But you could, you didn't have to manage the BJP, you had to manage Mamata Banerjee.
Digvijaya Singh: No, she will be managed. You know Mamata is a political person and she will see political reason behind this issue.
NDTV: Can I ask you though the Prime Minister was willing to lose his Government for the nuclear deal. Many people called this possibly a nuclear deal moment part two. Rahul Gandhi had then backed him firmly on the deal. This time he has backed him on FDI, but only kind of after the event. After it has been put into cold storage. Are you disappointed that the Government didn't stand more firmly behind this decision?
Digvijaya Singh: It would.
NDTV: It would mean what, in the future?
Digvijaya Singh: Yes.
NDTV: This is not dying?
Digvijaya Singh: No, certainly not. FDI will happen.
NDTV: You are waiting for the UP election results?
Digvijaya Singh: FDI will happen.
NDTV: Can you give a timeline?
Digvijaya Singh: Well, this is for the Government to decide. I am not a part of the Government.
NDTV: Then how are you so confident that it will happen?
Digvijaya Singh: Because it would happen.
NDTV: Does it depend on the UP election results?
Digvijaya Singh: Well, it is not related to any election. It is a genuine political decision which is good for the country, which is good for the farmer, which is good for the consumer. And I think the misunderstanding which has been created would be resolved.
NDTV: Would you concede it was badly handled?
Digvijaya Singh: Well, it should have been handled better.
NDTV: Can I ask you though today we've had the Centre referring back to Mayawati's decision to divide up Uttar Pradesh with a number of clarifications. Where will the Congress weigh on this decision eventually?
Digvijaya Singh: Well, I think it's a very tricky issue. The Congress Party has taken a view that dividing a state is not easy. We have to look into the geographical situation. We have to see the natural resources. We have to see the language. We have to see the culture. So therefore it's a highly, sort of, contentious issue. So therefore the Congress Party's stand has been that there should be a second State Reorganization Commission which should look into all such demands.
NDTV: Would you concede, as you enter, you are entering a major, major election. It could be a make or break election in many different ways. Would you concede that as the Congress Party enters this election, these two years have been nothing short of a disaster for the Congress?
Digvijaya Singh: No. We won Assam. We won in the last by-election, the election in the state. The BJP drew a blank and we did much better...
NDTV: The Government seems beleaguered.
Digvijaya Singh: We did much better than what media had predicted.
NDTV: Doesn't the Government seem beleaguered even to you as a Congressman?
Digvijaya Singh: You see, which Government is not attacked?
NDTV: Beleaguered. I am using the word beleaguered. Paralyzed, no cohesion?
Digvijaya Singh: I don't understand the meaning of beleaguered or whatever you may say. I am not good at English.
NDTV: Come on Mr. Digvijaya Singh, your English is better than mine.
Digvijaya Singh: No, no. Certainly not. But the fact remains that every government does go through period of where they are attacked on issues. UPA was also attacked. UPA I was also attacked. UPA II was also attacked. NDA Government was also attacked. But then if the Government is firm on issues, firm on ideology, and firm on a road map for the betterment of the country, I think there is no compromise.
NDTV: Pranab Mukherjee is said to have told various political leaders that had there been an adjournment motion on the FDI in retail issue, there was a prospect of a mid-term poll. It's that beleaguered. You don't have a working majority in the Rajya Sabha. You can't get major bills passed. Do you believe this Government will last its term with the same Prime Minister?
Digvijaya Singh: First of all the adjournment motion. The defeat of the adjournment motion does not mean the fall of the Government.
NDTV: Morally, if technically not. No, technically it doesn't. But it would have been a huge slap on the face.
Digvijaya Singh: Therefore I think there is no problem on that. The Government is firmly in the saddle. We have the majority.
NDTV: No change of leadership?
Digvijaya Singh: And no change of leadership because there is no vacancy. So therefore I think there is no problem
NDTV: Should there be a vacancy?
Digvijaya Singh: I would request the media to be a little more, to be more with their feet on the ground and realize that the Anna movement does not have the support of 120 crore people of this country.
NDTV: Well, elections will be the final barometer of where your support is.
Digvijaya Singh: Just see. After our Hisar defeat, we won a by-election in Haryana where BJP lost its deposit. We have now won municipal elections in Chandigarh, defeating BJP. We have wiped out Shiv Sena-BJP combine in Maharashtra and the media say, 'He has got support 120 crore people of this country?' I am not supporting.
NDTV: Alright. UP elections will have the last word. But can I ask you, even in Parliament, you have your old friend Mr Chidambaram, you have disagreed with him publicly on many issues... attacked every single day. The latest being the BJP saying he must quit because of a serious allegation of conflict of interest. Mr Chidambaram has denied the charges. But to a person listening in, they are saying this is a former client of the Home Minister and his Ministry has withdrawn an FIR against this person.
Digvijaya Singh: Barkha from day one. Ever since he has not agreed to delay the investigation in terror cases where Sangh activists have been implicated, BJP, RSS is against him. So this is a fallout of that.
NDTV: What about Digvijaya Singh?
Digvijaya Singh: Digvijaya Singh is solidly supporting Chidambaram.
NDTV: You don't believe the conflict of interest allegation is a serious one?
Digvijaya Singh: I don't know the case too well.
NDTV: I summed up the case for you.
Digvijaya Singh: Well, until I see it myself, I am not convinced.
NDTV: And you believe this is linked with right-wing terror?
Digvijaya Singh: Absolutely correct. As a Home Minister...
NDTV: You haven't used journalists as your sources for this theory as well, have you?
Digvijaya Singh: No, no. As the Home Minister of this country he has withstood the pressure of the Sangh and the BJP to delay the investigation of the Sangh terror act cases, where Sangh activists are involved, is the reason behind their attack against Chidambaram.
NDTV: Let me end quickly, Mr Digvijaya Singh, by asking you, isn't the big problem of the Government the fact that top two leaders, Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi, and now even
Rahul Gandhi, barely speak, at least to the media. They don't speak. The Prime Minister has given an interview to Bloomberg which I am most annoyed about because we are still waiting for the day when he will give an interview to an Indian journalist. Sonia Gandhi rarely meets us. Rahul Gandhi rarely meets us. You are on Twitter at a time when Anna Hazare has captured the media space. He blogs. His people are on Twitter. His videos are on YouTube. And the UPA is behaving like communication dinosaurs. At least you are not, you are on Twitter, whether it's good or bad. Don't you think they should be speaking more?
Digvijaya Singh: Well I think the Prime Minister has a press advisor, Mr. Harish Khare. Why don't you take it up with him?
NDTV: What do you think?
Digvijaya Singh: I have no comments to offer.
NDTV: How has the experience been on Twitter in the midst of a raging debate on social media and your Government and Mr Sibal again? Mr Sibal then denied that he was trying to censor that space?
Digvijaya Singh: Barkha, I am in the good company of Barkha Dutt. You are also getting some abusive mails and I am also getting abusive mails, so...
NDTV: Of course there is a lot of filth out there, but I don't support censorship.
Digvijaya Singh: I don't support it either. But the fact remains, just to sort of put the issues in the right perspective, I have decided to go on Twitter and...
NDTV: Are you liking it?
Digvijaya Singh: I am enjoying it
NDTV: You are enjoying it? Because you like a good fight?
Digvijaya Singh: Of course yes.
NDTV: We'll leave it there Digvijaya Singh
Digvijaya Singh: Thank you Barkha.
NDTV: In the hope that you will be advising your top leaders to, if not come on Twitter, at least speak to the public much more often.
Digvijaya Singh: Well, I will take this up with the Press Advisor to the Prime Minister.
NDTV: Good to hear. Digvijaya Singh, not pulling punches, as ever, and the newsmaker tonight.
NDTV: Hello and welcome to this special episode of The Buck Stops Here. Well, the Government is racing against time to try and bring and pass the Lokpal Bill in the Winter Session of Parliament. The Cabinet will now be meeting, in all likelihood, tomorrow afternoon. As the Government works the midnight oil to present amendments to the earlier draft of the Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare is not satisfied. Not yet anyway. Amidst reports that he will be watching the Parliamentary proceedings when the Lokpal debate does take place, so far he is standing firm on his announcement that he will be going on a fast and an agitation from the 27th of this month. Can the Congress afford another round of agitation by Anna Hazare? Especially with UP elections drawing close? Today, on the programme to discuss all this and more, someone who has never pulled his punches, our newsmaker today, Digvijaya Singh.
Digvijaya Singh: Well, I don't know about that but I am the favourite punching bag of all.
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Digvijaya Singh: Anna, I respect him a lot.
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Digvijaya Singh: Yes. I would still do it when I meet him. Unfortunately, he has not met me, or I have not met him rather.
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Digvijaya Singh: No. But...
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Digvijaya Singh: But there is no need. He has taken a stance that I think is quite apparent, now that he has been surrounded by all those who don't like the Congress Party, who don't like Sonia Gandhi, Rahul Gandhi, and this has become apparent now.
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Digvijaya Singh: Well, to some extent yes. But now the fact remains that when he, sort of, came out of his fast, he laid three conditions. Number one, the C class officers must be included. Number two, there should be a Citizen's Charter. Number three, there should be Lokayukta, Lokpals in the states.
NDTV: These were conditions accepted by Parliament in the sense of the House resolution.
Digvijaya Singh: This is what I am saying. And all three conditions the Government must honour. After all, it was a unanimous resolution of both Houses. But at the same time, under the Indian Constitution, can Anna take upon himself the responsibility of framing the law? It is the authority of the Parliament, the collective wisdom of the Parliament, which shall frame the Lokpal. And I think Anna should understand this and not really, sort of, take a position that "You accept every word that I say verbatim, otherwise I am going to go on a fast."
NDTV: But given that these three points that you have raised were Parliament's assurance to the country, not just to Anna Hazare but to the country
Digvijaya Singh: I totally agree. I totally agree.
NDTV: Why then, for example, would the Standing Committee of Parliament produce a draft which, for example, did not bring the Group C officers under the purview of the Lokpal. I mean, this just seems to be going against the grain of Parliament's promises to the country.
Digvijaya Singh: But you must ...
NDTV: Or the Prime Minister, for example, the inclusion of the Prime Minister.
Digvijaya Singh: But you must understand. The Standing Committee gives its recommendations but it is the Parliament which frames the law. And there is a unanimity, I am sure, amongst all political parties to include and honour all the three conditions which they had accepted. And that is that.
NDTV: Digvijaya Singh, the question ...
Digvijaya Singh: And beyond that, I think, there is a consensus also in the UPA, which I read from the newspapers and the media, that even they are, with certain safeguards, prepared to bring the Prime Minister under the ambit of the Lokpal, which is a good sign.
NDTV: If what you say is so common-sensical, "Leave it to Parliament." Why does the Government at every point, seem to be starting with very grand proclamations, starting with the kind of statements that you are making, but when it comes to the crunch, it surrenders. It buckles. It is accepted that Anna Hazare has caught the imagination of the public and put the Government on the back foot. Firmly and squarely on the back foot.
Digvijaya Singh: Why do you forget Barkha, that it was Congress Party President Mrs. Sonia Gandhi, who in her speech in Burari in the AICC Session said "We would like to have a strong Lokpal Bill as soon as possible."
NDTV: But if it were not for Anna Hazare ...
Digvijaya Singh: One second. One second. One second. At that time Anna Hazare was not in the picture.
NDTV: Nor did the Lokpal Bill ever see the light of day.
Digvijaya Singh: No. No. She had given this task to two members of the National Advisory Council, who have got a great credibility among the so called civil society; Aruna Roy, Harsh Mander. And they had prepared a draft. Today also, I must confess, although I don't agree with whatever they say, but my contention is that the draft prepared by Aruna Roy is much more practical than what Anna's team has produced. And Anna's team has produced 15 different drafts from the very beginning. So therefore, I think, let us not only talk of Anna's draft. There is Aruna Roy's draft also. So, I think, we should, all members who had, all institutions who have something to say about Lokpal were given an opportunity. And they were given an opportunity before the Standing Committee. Their statements have been recorded. All parties have got together and are in the mode of deliberations. They have gone past that. Now leave it to the wisdom of Parliament to frame a strong and implementable Lokpal.
NDTV: Before we come to the specifics of some of the contentious issues, I ask you the same question. The question is, the Congress says this. People like yourself are amongst those that are blunt about it, but it seems that politically your options are not too many. The fact of the matter is that if it were not for Anna Hazare's imminent agitation at the end of this month, Parliament and the Government would not be scrambling to pass the Lokpal. Isn't that true? Would you at least give him credit for that? He has set the deadline for your Government.
Digvijaya Singh: To some extent, yes.
NDTV: Why has that happened? Is it a failure of politics? Is it a failure of leadership? Is it mishandling?
Digvijaya Singh: This is the essence of democracy, Barkha. The essence of democracy is that the Government in power has to listen to people and people's suggestions, take note of that, and within the ambit of the Constitution, and the political scene, they have to honour whatever is possible and implementable.
NDTV: Would you accept that Anna Hazare has become a kind of lightning rod for the public disenchantment with your Government?
Digvijaya Singh: I would not call him a lightning rod.
NDTV: With all politicians, but especially your Government?
Digvijaya Singh: As far as I am concerned, certainly not.
NDTV: So what do you think he symbolizes? What is Anna Hazare for you?
Digvijaya Singh: Well, Anna is a well-meaning person who has done good work in watershed management, in rural development, but now he has people around who have intense dislike for the Congress Party.
NDTV: Which people do you mean? Why don't you name them?
Digvijaya Singh: Arvind Kejriwal. Kiran Bedi. Shanti Bhushan. Prashant Bhushan.
NDTV: Arvind Kejriwal, and all of them, when this question is put to them, they say "We are not anti-Congress, but we believe that the Government in power has to be more accountable than the Opposition." Surely that's common sense?
Digvijaya Singh: Exactly. But they see no corruption in state governments? 95% of the corruption in this country takes place in the states.
NDTV: Why? They differed with Nitish Kumar on his Lokayukta Bill. And Nitish Kumar is not a Congress leader.
Digvijaya Singh: One second, one second. Let me complete. They have never questioned or agitated against the corruption of the Karnataka Chief Minister. They have never agitated against the corruption of the Uttarakhand Government. They have never agitated ...
NDTV: Uttarakhand they say has brought in a model Lokayukta Bill.
Digvijaya Singh: Listen to me. This is post removal of the corrupt Chief Minister. But, tell me, did Baba Ramdev, who has an ashram in Uttarakhand, who wants to bring black money, did he ever raise a voice against the corruption in Uttarakhand?
NDTV: Let me put it to you like this...
Digvijaya Singh: Or Sri Sri Ravi Shankar Maharaj, has he ever raised the issue of corruption in the Karnataka Government?
NDTV: Let me put it to you like this. Even if you see, a bulk of Opposition parties have backed the Anna Hazare movement, and why not? All is fair in love and politics. Would you at least concede that politically, and let's look at this through the prism of politics, Anna Hazare has underlined the failure of politics when it comes to political leadership of your Government. Let's give you a small example. We saw Anna Hazare overseeing a public debate in the national capital on the Lokpal Bill. We saw major opposition leaders from Arun Jaitley to Brinda Karat to Sharad Yadav even, who was so scathing in Parliament when the debate took place, attending this. Do you not think the Congress missed an opportunity? You wrote on Twitter that the Congress is not shy of debates. I said Digvijaya Singh should have been sent for the debate. Why didn't you go? Did you volunteer yourself?
Digvijaya Singh: Barkha, listen...
NDTV: No, seriously. Serious question.
Digvijaya Singh: No. Listen to me. First of all, why don't you give credit to UPA government...
NDTV: For what?
Digvijaya Singh: For co-opting Anna's team into the Drafting Committee with five central ministers which is unprecedented, unheard of...
NDTV: And then disregarding all of their recommendations.
Digvijaya Singh: One second, one second. Because of which all opposition parties were mad against, were angry with us, that why did you have to give credibility and credence to these people who are no one, you know, in the system? Why did you not consult us earlier? So, I think, don't forget that the first support that Anna's team got was from the Congress Party.
NDTV: Till he was arrested. Till Anna Hazare was arrested in what has to count as the biggest blunder made by this Government.
Digvijaya Singh: Barkha. You see, this is not a political decision, it is an administrative decision...
NDTV: Come on Sir.
Digvijaya Singh: Why "Come on"?
NDTV: That explanation. That explanation was attempted on the crackdown on Baba Ramdev's supporters and that explanation has been contested by no less a lawyer than Rajeev Dhawan. As a friend of the court, as amicus curiae, he said, "The Delhi Police was asked to execute a political order." Now if you are going to try that same theory with Anna Hazare's arrest then you are being dishonest. And that is not your style. You are pretty blunt usually.
Digvijaya Singh: Barkha, I am not being dishonest, but I am stating a fact, a sort of a legal position. The Delhi Police Commissioner is accountable to the Lieutenant Governor of Delhi, number one. Number two, it is his responsibility to maintain law and order in Delhi. He does not have to take any orders from the Home Minister.
NDTV: But it was a mistake wasn't it? To arrest Anna Hazare was a mistake.
Digvijaya Singh: You see...
NDTV: Grave mistake.
Digvijaya Singh: You see, I will not comment on that because, Supreme, because this is an issue which is under the domain of the Police Commissioner and the Lieutenant Governor.
NDTV: Ok, ok. But let's discuss...
Digvijaya Singh: And it was not a political decision.
NDTV: Let's discuss, let's leave that aside because you won't convince me and I won't convince you. Let's discuss a missed opportunity at that public debate in Delhi. We have Congress leaders, some of them brave enough, to come on to TV studios and argue with Team Anna. What's the problem in doing it at a public debate?
Digvijaya Singh: Why should we do it?
NDTV: Why not? This is a democracy. The people have a right to hear your views.
Digvijaya Singh: Mr Salman Khurshid...
NDTV: Did take part in a television debate...
Digvijaya Singh: Went to Kolkata and debated at the Saturday Club. Now, again, there was no harm in going there. But it was a political decision taken by the Congress Party.
NDTV: Were you invited?
Digvijaya Singh: No.
NDTV: By Team Anna?
Digvijaya Singh: First of all, I am not a good debater. I am a political man.
NDTV: If you had been invited would you have gone?
Digvijaya Singh: With the permission of the Congress President certainly yes. But not without taking her permission. But the fact remains, the unanimity amongst the political leaders at that debate was, 'Don't challenge the authority of Parliament.'
NDTV: Okay.
Digvijaya Singh: That is it.
NDTV: Let me ask you one last question on the Anna Hazare challenge as it were. Anna Hazare has now targeted Rahul Gandhi, saying that the watered down version of the Bill had to do with Rahul Gandhi. Why does that make you laugh? Rahul Gandhi did intervene at the last moment, asked for a constitutional status like the Election Commission to the Lokpal. It's getting it because Rahul Gandhi asked for it.
Digvijaya Singh: Yes. Which was first...
NDTV: He intervened late and did not participate in the debate thereafter.
Digvijaya Singh: Barkha, just see the contradiction in itself. When Mr Rahul Gandhi said that "Lokpal should a given a constitutional status" Okay? Anna's team rejected it outright. And now they are supporting it. Now, after supporting what Rahul Gandhiji had said, they say that he has watered down the whole thing.
NDTV:How involved is Rahul?
Digvijaya Singh: In fact, he has given greater authority and stature to the Lokpal than they had proposed.
NDTV: How involved is he in the deliberations? Because many people have criticized Rahul Gandhi for intervening at the last moment and then walking away from the conversation.
Digvijaya Singh: Barkha, you know how this thing functions? What I know of Rahul Gandhi, he is not at all interfering in governance. He has been given a task by the Congress President to look after the NSUI Student's Wing and the Youth Wing of the Congress Party, which he is doing excellently because he has brought democracy in NSUI and Youth Congress. We have got democratically elected people amongst the students and the youth and at the same time given the task of a campaign in the elections. So therefore he is doing his task. He has no role to play in governance.
NDTV: Why do you make outlandish statements like "Anna Hazare will be the presidential candidate of the non-BJP parties"?
Digvijaya Singh: Well...
NDTV: What is your basis for making a statement like this?
Digvijaya Singh: Media. My, my...
NDTV: Your sources are us?
Digvijaya Singh: My sources in the media told me that this is possible. So I threw a question which they answered. No, it's not correct. So I am quite satisfied.
NDTV: So do you withdraw that statement? Do you regret some of the statements that you have made?
Digvijaya Singh: Why should I withdraw? I said I am satisfied. Why should I withdraw? I am satisfied.
NDTV: Last question. Do you believe your party can politically afford, and I am asking you a political question because you are an old-fashioned, true-blood politician, can you politically afford another agitation by Anna Hazare?
Digvijaya Singh: We have no problem.
NDTV: So if Anna Hazare fasts again no problem?
Digvijaya Singh: No problem at all.
NDTV: You wouldn't appeal to him to not fast?
Digvijaya Singh: Well, we would appeal to Anna not to fast, but if he wants to fast why don't they allow Mr. Kejriwal to fast? Why shouldn't Kiran Bedi fast? They are younger people. Why should we harass poor fellow Anna Hazare? In such cold winter of Delhi he should be asked to be made to sit and they keep on having the best of the meals and poor Anna Hazare is fasting?
NDTV: But isn't his fast setting a deadline for your Government? That's why Parliament's being extended. Acknowledge it.
Digvijaya Singh: Well, this is being done because the Parliament gave a commitment, both Houses that we shall pass the Lokpal Bill in this session. So, it's a commitment made by the Parliament to the Nation which they want to commit.
NDTV: One of the things is that people are watching, and the public is taking this away, is that the Government does not want to give up the control of the CBI. We've had former CBI Directors on show after show saying, 'If the CBI is not made independent, the Lokpal is meaningless.'
Digvijaya Singh: Let me tell you Barkha, give me one instance of any authority in the world which has the responsibility of registering the complaint, which has the authority of investigation and which has the authority of judgement? Give me one instance in the world.
NDTV: But at least the appointment of the Director, at least the appointment of personnel, can be done in a non-political, independent way. A collegium, as has been suggested by the BJP, of the Prime Minister, the Leader of the Opposition and the Head of the Lokpal.
Digvijaya Singh: They have found a way out and I think you will see it in the draft.
NDTV: All right. Let's move on to another big embarrassment for your party and the Government. We heard Rahul Gandhi in his election speeches in UP talking about FDI in retail. How stalling that is actually going to hurt the farmer. Once again, Digvijaya Singh, this is a question about leadership. If the Government believed so firmly in bringing an FDI in retail, A, why did not we hear from Rahul Gandhi earlier; B, why did the Prime Minister not stand firm?
Digvijaya Singh: FDI is good for the country. It is good for the producer. It is good for the consumer. After all, in our country, we have the most inefficient supply side retail mechanism in the world, where the cost of the middlemen between the producer and the consumer is the highest in the world. So therefore, we want more investment to come in, we want better technology to come in. So therefore we want FDI to come in.
NDTV: But was this badly handled again? Not consulting allies or not selling the idea to the public? Even the Prime Minister said that in his interview to Bloomberg.
Digvijaya Singh: To a certain extent you are right. You know, first of all, UPA I had a functional co-ordination committee which unfortunately UPA II did not create, but now they have created. So I think these issues could have been settled. And I think Mamata also will understand, ultimately, that 100% FDI in retail doesn't hurt anyone. It doesn't even hurt the neighbourhood shops.
NDTV: But once again I must say that conspiracy theories ranging from, this was a diversion created to take attention away from the Lokpal, to our basic question, does the Congress not know its politics? Why would you introduce such a decisive Executive decision while Parliament is in session, without your allies on board, and then not put your weight behind it? Not even have the spine to put your weight behind it?
Digvijaya Singh: Barkha, this has been debated at every level since the last three years. The suggestions have been taken from Chief Ministers of each state. Some of them have not responded but most of them have responded.
NDTV: But you had opposition from your own ally. Forget the BJP.
Digvijaya Singh: You see BJP Chief Ministers, Narendra Modi, and at the same time Karnataka Chief Minister and their ally, the Punjab Chief Minister, are all for FDI in retail. Now, BJP itself, it's a master of double speak. They proposed Nuclear Accountability Bill, they opposed it. They proposed VAT and then they opposed it. They proposed GST, now they have opposed it. And they proposed FDI, they have opposed it.
NDTV: But you could, you didn't have to manage the BJP, you had to manage Mamata Banerjee.
Digvijaya Singh: No, she will be managed. You know Mamata is a political person and she will see political reason behind this issue.
NDTV: Can I ask you though the Prime Minister was willing to lose his Government for the nuclear deal. Many people called this possibly a nuclear deal moment part two. Rahul Gandhi had then backed him firmly on the deal. This time he has backed him on FDI, but only kind of after the event. After it has been put into cold storage. Are you disappointed that the Government didn't stand more firmly behind this decision?
Digvijaya Singh: It would.
NDTV: It would mean what, in the future?
Digvijaya Singh: Yes.
NDTV: This is not dying?
Digvijaya Singh: No, certainly not. FDI will happen.
NDTV: You are waiting for the UP election results?
Digvijaya Singh: FDI will happen.
NDTV: Can you give a timeline?
Digvijaya Singh: Well, this is for the Government to decide. I am not a part of the Government.
NDTV: Then how are you so confident that it will happen?
Digvijaya Singh: Because it would happen.
NDTV: Does it depend on the UP election results?
Digvijaya Singh: Well, it is not related to any election. It is a genuine political decision which is good for the country, which is good for the farmer, which is good for the consumer. And I think the misunderstanding which has been created would be resolved.
NDTV: Would you concede it was badly handled?
Digvijaya Singh: Well, it should have been handled better.
NDTV: Can I ask you though today we've had the Centre referring back to Mayawati's decision to divide up Uttar Pradesh with a number of clarifications. Where will the Congress weigh on this decision eventually?
Digvijaya Singh: Well, I think it's a very tricky issue. The Congress Party has taken a view that dividing a state is not easy. We have to look into the geographical situation. We have to see the natural resources. We have to see the language. We have to see the culture. So therefore it's a highly, sort of, contentious issue. So therefore the Congress Party's stand has been that there should be a second State Reorganization Commission which should look into all such demands.
NDTV: Would you concede, as you enter, you are entering a major, major election. It could be a make or break election in many different ways. Would you concede that as the Congress Party enters this election, these two years have been nothing short of a disaster for the Congress?
Digvijaya Singh: No. We won Assam. We won in the last by-election, the election in the state. The BJP drew a blank and we did much better...
NDTV: The Government seems beleaguered.
Digvijaya Singh: We did much better than what media had predicted.
NDTV: Doesn't the Government seem beleaguered even to you as a Congressman?
Digvijaya Singh: You see, which Government is not attacked?
NDTV: Beleaguered. I am using the word beleaguered. Paralyzed, no cohesion?
Digvijaya Singh: I don't understand the meaning of beleaguered or whatever you may say. I am not good at English.
NDTV: Come on Mr. Digvijaya Singh, your English is better than mine.
Digvijaya Singh: No, no. Certainly not. But the fact remains that every government does go through period of where they are attacked on issues. UPA was also attacked. UPA I was also attacked. UPA II was also attacked. NDA Government was also attacked. But then if the Government is firm on issues, firm on ideology, and firm on a road map for the betterment of the country, I think there is no compromise.
NDTV: Pranab Mukherjee is said to have told various political leaders that had there been an adjournment motion on the FDI in retail issue, there was a prospect of a mid-term poll. It's that beleaguered. You don't have a working majority in the Rajya Sabha. You can't get major bills passed. Do you believe this Government will last its term with the same Prime Minister?
Digvijaya Singh: First of all the adjournment motion. The defeat of the adjournment motion does not mean the fall of the Government.
NDTV: Morally, if technically not. No, technically it doesn't. But it would have been a huge slap on the face.
Digvijaya Singh: Therefore I think there is no problem on that. The Government is firmly in the saddle. We have the majority.
NDTV: No change of leadership?
Digvijaya Singh: And no change of leadership because there is no vacancy. So therefore I think there is no problem
NDTV: Should there be a vacancy?
Digvijaya Singh: I would request the media to be a little more, to be more with their feet on the ground and realize that the Anna movement does not have the support of 120 crore people of this country.
NDTV: Well, elections will be the final barometer of where your support is.
Digvijaya Singh: Just see. After our Hisar defeat, we won a by-election in Haryana where BJP lost its deposit. We have now won municipal elections in Chandigarh, defeating BJP. We have wiped out Shiv Sena-BJP combine in Maharashtra and the media say, 'He has got support 120 crore people of this country?' I am not supporting.
NDTV: Alright. UP elections will have the last word. But can I ask you, even in Parliament, you have your old friend Mr Chidambaram, you have disagreed with him publicly on many issues... attacked every single day. The latest being the BJP saying he must quit because of a serious allegation of conflict of interest. Mr Chidambaram has denied the charges. But to a person listening in, they are saying this is a former client of the Home Minister and his Ministry has withdrawn an FIR against this person.
Digvijaya Singh: Barkha from day one. Ever since he has not agreed to delay the investigation in terror cases where Sangh activists have been implicated, BJP, RSS is against him. So this is a fallout of that.
NDTV: What about Digvijaya Singh?
Digvijaya Singh: Digvijaya Singh is solidly supporting Chidambaram.
NDTV: You don't believe the conflict of interest allegation is a serious one?
Digvijaya Singh: I don't know the case too well.
NDTV: I summed up the case for you.
Digvijaya Singh: Well, until I see it myself, I am not convinced.
NDTV: And you believe this is linked with right-wing terror?
Digvijaya Singh: Absolutely correct. As a Home Minister...
NDTV: You haven't used journalists as your sources for this theory as well, have you?
Digvijaya Singh: No, no. As the Home Minister of this country he has withstood the pressure of the Sangh and the BJP to delay the investigation of the Sangh terror act cases, where Sangh activists are involved, is the reason behind their attack against Chidambaram.
NDTV: Let me end quickly, Mr Digvijaya Singh, by asking you, isn't the big problem of the Government the fact that top two leaders, Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi, and now even
Rahul Gandhi, barely speak, at least to the media. They don't speak. The Prime Minister has given an interview to Bloomberg which I am most annoyed about because we are still waiting for the day when he will give an interview to an Indian journalist. Sonia Gandhi rarely meets us. Rahul Gandhi rarely meets us. You are on Twitter at a time when Anna Hazare has captured the media space. He blogs. His people are on Twitter. His videos are on YouTube. And the UPA is behaving like communication dinosaurs. At least you are not, you are on Twitter, whether it's good or bad. Don't you think they should be speaking more?
Digvijaya Singh: Well I think the Prime Minister has a press advisor, Mr. Harish Khare. Why don't you take it up with him?
NDTV: What do you think?
Digvijaya Singh: I have no comments to offer.
NDTV: How has the experience been on Twitter in the midst of a raging debate on social media and your Government and Mr Sibal again? Mr Sibal then denied that he was trying to censor that space?
Digvijaya Singh: Barkha, I am in the good company of Barkha Dutt. You are also getting some abusive mails and I am also getting abusive mails, so...
NDTV: Of course there is a lot of filth out there, but I don't support censorship.
Digvijaya Singh: I don't support it either. But the fact remains, just to sort of put the issues in the right perspective, I have decided to go on Twitter and...
NDTV: Are you liking it?
Digvijaya Singh: I am enjoying it
NDTV: You are enjoying it? Because you like a good fight?
Digvijaya Singh: Of course yes.
NDTV: We'll leave it there Digvijaya Singh
Digvijaya Singh: Thank you Barkha.
NDTV: In the hope that you will be advising your top leaders to, if not come on Twitter, at least speak to the public much more often.
Digvijaya Singh: Well, I will take this up with the Press Advisor to the Prime Minister.
NDTV: Good to hear. Digvijaya Singh, not pulling punches, as ever, and the newsmaker tonight.
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