New Delhi:
In an exclusive interview to NDTV, BJP leader and leader of opposition in Lok Sabha Sushma Swaraj says she is sorry to hear that party colleagues are spreading rumours that she stayed away from the UP campaign because she was sulking. She said the only reason for her late entry is ill health. Mrs Swaraj also said that she felt shameful about Karnataka's porngate. And in what can be seen as a hardening of positions on the eve of the UP elections, she was unapologetic about the Ayodhya movement and its aftermath. She said her objections to Sonia Gandhi becoming PM remain as strong as ever.
Here's the full transcript of the interview:
NDTV: Sushmaji thanks so much for talking to us in the middle of your campaign schedule. I know how busy you are and how difficult it is to pin you down for these interviews?
Sushma Swaraj: Thank you.
NDTV: Let me bring you to the present. If you look at today, what are the three or four things that the BJP are making headlines today for? You tell me whether you won't say it's a decline. One as we speak today, the biggest headline is that three BJP ministers were caught watching porn in Karnataka Assembly?
Sushma Swaraj: But within 24 hours their resignations were taken. That should also make the headline.
NDTV: It did make the headlines, but the fact that they were from the BJP is, I think, repeatedly underlined. It's not to say that these things can't happen in any party, but the fact is that it happened in the BJP, which was something which caused even greater outrage?
Sushma Swaraj: I will call it unfortunate and shameful too. But I am happy that action was taken immediately.
NDTV: What was your first reaction when you saw that? Were you appalled like everybody else?
Sushma Swaraj: Of shame.
NDTV: Of shame. You felt terrible that it had happened and especially within the party?
Sushma Swaraj: I did.
NDTV: And so action was swiftly taken?
Sushma Swaraj: Yes, I am happy about that.
NDTV: But is it damaging for BJP's image?
Sushma Swaraj: Image has been controlled by the action. By this strict action.
NDTV: But you don't see that as an example of decline in the culture of the BJP or the character of the BJP?
Sushma Swaraj: It is an aberration.
NDTV: The second headline that came out, particularly out of these UP elections, was the entry of Babu Singh Kushwaha into the BJP, which again many felt was extremely unfortunate. People of your own party have spoken out on it and was that again something avoidable?
Sushma Swaraj: No, the national President has said that when he took this decision there was no case against him. But I think after his letter to the national President, that his membership should be suspended, episode should be over.
NDTV: What did you feel about it? The fact that you need to bring in someone like him?
Sushma Swaraj: Whatever I felt, I told the President at the appropriate forum. I don't think media is the appropriate forum to say that.
NDTV: But reading between the lines, is it fair to say that it was not a decision you were comfortable with?
Sushma Swaraj: Whatever I have to say, I have said there.
NDTV: Again you have been in UP, you have travelled there; you think that decision has done some damage to the BJP's image particularly to your anti-corruption plank, a very strong attempt to pin the government down on the corruption? Do you think that Kushwaha episode has put you on the back foot?
Sushma Swaraj: No, everybody thinks that episode is over, so I don't think any shadow of that decision is on the campaign.
NDTV: Okay, the third thing that made headlines in the elections and which involved you, are that top leaders like you of the BJP are sulking and have been reluctant to come out to campaign?
Sushma Swaraj: I am sorry to hear that, because I was very, very unwell and I don't think when battlefield is there anybody will sulk and will not go to the battlefield. I tweeted on Twitter, that have to go to the battlefield, very wrong time to get viral. You have been there with me, I was just 80% well when I was in the battlefield and every day I am going still. Who told you that I was sulking? First of all that is not my style. Sulking is never my style, because whatever I feel I tell it at the appropriate forum and that is the thing's end.
NDTV: So the reason for your late entry into the campaign is just your health?
Sushma Swaraj: Yes, because I was unwell.
NDTV: There was no other reason as it is made out to be?
Sushma Swaraj: No I was down with viral and as I told you that I didn't wait for getting well. I was just 80% well and I had gone to UP. I am sorry to hear this.
NDTV: I think you are seasoned enough a politician to know that some of these reports emanate from your own party and this is not something which has happened for the first time. But it is not entirely a media creation when these reports emerged and were put out, but an impression was sought to be given that leaders like yourself and Narendra Modi were unhappy, for whatever reason, with the party leadership. That is why you kind of stayed away from the campaign?
Sushma Swaraj: No, I am very sorry to hear that any party colleague of mine will say that I was sulking, especially after knowing this, that I was unwell. Everybody knew I was unwell. I am very sorry to hear that.
NDTV: But did you campaign in Punjab, Uttarakhand and in the other states as much as you would have wanted to?
Sushma Swaraj: That is what I am saying, I was unwell and did not go to Uttarakhand and Punjab, but fortunately in Punjab, when the launch meeting was done in Moga, I was there. Now I say that was a blessing that I could go to Moga. In Dehradun also I had gone for an ex-services rally. By then elections were announced. So these two meetings I could do, in Moga and Dehradun. But after I came from Bhopal on 19th I was down with viral, so I could not go to Uttarakhand and Punjab. Now I feel very bad.
NDTV: Why is Narendra Modi staying away from the UP campaign? He has not come even once.
Sushma Swaraj: I think he will come. There is still time. Till 1st of March there is campaigning.
NDTV: I know, but I am saying that there are only a few weeks left. He still has not come. He is a very senior leader of the BJP and somebody who, by all accounts, the party once wanted to go into the campaign, and he is not there?
Sushma Swaraj: Only 1st phase is over, five more phases are there.
NDTV: But is it right to interpret his absence as the fact that he is upset?
Sushma Swaraj: Only he can tell that. I won't say that because I don't know about that. How can I say that he is upset?
NDTV: No, but as a senior leader of the party, are you concerned that someone like him, the prominent face of the party, is not campaigning in Uttar Pradesh? What kind of signal does it send?
Sushma Swaraj: No signals. I am saying, hopefully he will come. I think he will come.
NDTV: One thing you said in your campaign speech, though you were talking about corruption a lot, but there is one thing you said in the context of Hindutva which I wanted to ask you about. You talked about the business of people cheering for Pakistan after a cricket match. You said that is something which is not acceptable if those of the Muslim communities are found cheering for Pakistan. I had to confess I was a little taken aback when you brought that up. How was that relevant in the context of today's election and today's campaign?
Sushma Swaraj: Yes, it is very very relevant. See I was emphasizing on the point that we are not anti-Muslims and we are not against any schemes for their welfare by the Government. Even our various state Governments have brought in such welfare schemes, but I was against the reservation based on religion. So religion based reservations I was opposing. I opposed it in my Lokpal Bill debate in the Parliament. So I was saying that we are not anti-Muslims per se, but we are against the mentality, and what is that mentality, that if on the day of the cricket match, if you raise a slogan 'Pakistan Zindabad', that shows a mentality. So we are against that mentality, we are not against Muslims per se. We are not against any religion.
NDTV: Against Muslims who cheer for Pakistan is what you have a problem with?
Sushma Swaraj: I was differentiating between our community and our mentality. We are not against the community per se, because I was saying
Eid ki khushiyaa manao hum shirkat karne aayengey, rozey rakho hum iftaar ki daawat dengey. That is regarding the community, but if somebody says that, we will not tolerate it. I was differentiating between the community and the mentality.
NDTV: One is the legacy of the Ram Janambhoomi Movement. When you say that you are not anti-Muslim, in a way it is reflecting two incidents which give the image that you, as in the BJP, is anti-Muslim. Were you very actively involved in the Ram Janambhoomi Movement, from travelling and participating in Advaniji's campaign?
Sushma Swaraj: Yes, yes, yes. I was travelling with Advaniji in the entire total Haryana campaign. I was with him on the Rath throughout.
NDTV: But on the actual day of demolition you were not there?
Sushma Swaraj: I was not in Ayodhya.
NDTV: Where were you on that day?
Sushma Swaraj: I had gone to Mizoram, my husband was the Governor that time.
NDTV: So you were in Mizoram that time, but would you have wanted to be there?
Sushma Swaraj: Why not?
NDTV: On the 6th of December you would have wanted to be in Ayodhya?
Sushma Swaraj: I have no problem. I am a BJP worker, I was there in the Movement but that day I was not in Ayodhya because, as I told you, that I was in Mizoram.
NDTV: Now what did you feel about this? Even if you were not there, when you heard the news that this is what has happened, what was your first reaction?
Sushma Swaraj: This is what I am saying, that why are asking you this today. A lot of water has flown in the Ganges.
NDTV: But you don't want to answer my question about what you felt about the demolition, what you thought about that?
Sushma Swaraj: I am telling you because after that, also whatever happened in all the Movements, I was there. After that also whatever programme party has undertaken I have been there.
NDTV: So is it fair to say that you don't have any regrets about it? Not about the Movement, but about the demolition?
Sushma Swaraj: About the Movement I don't have any regrets.
NDTV: Demolition regrets?
Sushma Swaraj: After this verdict when the Court itself has said that you should not dispute this, please have faith in our belief also, and respect our belief also.
NDTV: Sushmaji you're known for your plain speaking, but on this one issue you don't seem to be giving me a direct answer, on the question of Babri Masjid.
Sushma Swaraj: No I gave this answer on the floor of the House while participating on the question of Liberhan Commission Report. I was very forthcoming. And I told the Parliament that if you think that we're responsible for this demolition, we're ready to take punishment. All the 116 sitting here will take punishment. All the 45 MPs sitting there will take punishment. You punish us, why don't you punish us? We're ready to take punishment for that. So I was very categorical, very, very categorical on Babri Masjid case and my stand is very clear.
NDTV: Despite the fact Sushmaji, that after the demolition there was large scale violence, thousands were killed, and you still feel that? You still feel categorical about it?
Sushma Swaraj: Yes I feel very categorical about it.
NDTV: Sushmaji tell me, the reason why these questions are coming up, is also because, in a way if you have a look at 2014 and who is going to lead the BJP, then it is very much down to two or three or a few names. Of course, you will say that the Party will decide and you are fully entitled to say that, but it is really between someone like yourself, Narendra Modi, Arun Jaitley. These are the three or four names that keep coming up repeatedly?
Sushma Swaraj: Many more.
NDTV: But these are the three most prominent names?
Sushma Swaraj: Why are you leaving out the President?
NDTV: I shouldn't leave out the President, he himself should not rule himself out also. Advaniji is also there, but when you are the main Leader of the Opposition of Lok Sabha, which is no small post, it is the post that has been held before by the likes of Vajpayeeji, Advaniji. Many believe that was an indirect way of indicating that you are very much the front runner for leading the party in 2014?
Sushma Swaraj: See in our party it is not automatic that whosoever is the Leader of the Opposition is the candidate for the Prime Ministership. It is not done like that.
NDTV: Advaniji has kind of indicated that to be the Leader of Opposition, you are like the shadow Prime Minister?
Sushma Swaraj: No that is not the practice in India. It is the practice in England, that if you are the Leader of Opposition you are the shadow Prime Minister, so that seat is there but it doesn't happen here.
NDTV: In India it doesn't happen formally.
Sushma Swaraj: That is what I am saying.
NDTV: But informally it indicates that, look, this person is potentially one of the candidates who could be the PM candidate of our choice?
Sushma Swaraj: That doesn't rule out others. In England it rules out others, in India it doesn't rule out others. So that is what I am saying, by sitting on the seat of Leader of Opposition you do not automatically become candidate for Prime Ministership before the elections. Conscious decisions are taken by the Party.
NDTV: With all due respect, all politicians say that, and perhaps you have to also because you have to be diplomatic. But out of the two options, whether you could play a more Parliamentary role, going forward as ministerial or Prime Ministerial candidate, or an organisational role, would you have any preferences?
Sushma Swaraj: No preferences, whatever the Party says I'll perform that. Whatever, whatever the party says.
NDTV: But why is it then...
Sushma Swaraj: ... I'm comfortable in both places.
NDTV: But why is it then, in 2009 for the post of party President, people like you weren't keen to accept that position?
Sushma Swaraj: It is not a question of being keen, because Advaniji on 6th May itself had declared that I'll become the Leader of Opposition. So once he has decided the post for me in Lok Sabha, naturally I can't be keen for another post.
NDTV: But it is not that you're averse to an organisational role?
Sushma Swaraj: No, no I am not averse.
NDTV: Like party President?
Sushma Swaraj: Not at all.
NDTV: Are you still as strongly opposed to Sonia Gandhi becoming PM as you were?
Sushma Swaraj: As strong as ever.
NDTV: And the famous three vows that you'd sworn you'd take if she became PM at that time?
Sushma Swaraj: I've no regrets for that.
NDTV: That you will shave your head, that you will take
sanyas?
Sushma Swaraj: I have no regrets for those vows because it still touches my sensibilities.
NDTV: It does?
Sushma Swaraj: It does.
NDTV: And tomorrow in the unlikelihood it was to arise again, would you take the same three vows?
Sushma Swaraj: Same vows and the same movement.