New Delhi:
On Your Call, Sam Pitroda talks about being the adviser to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and how different it is from being the adviser of former Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi. Mr Pitroda, who was responsible for the telecom revolution, also talks about policy paralysis in this exclusive interview.
Here's the full transcript of the interview:
NDTV: Good evening and welcome to Your Call. Tonight's guest is a man who helped lay the foundation of India's telecom revolution as an adviser to the then Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi; he is now back as an adviser to another Prime Minister. Sam Pitroda joins me tonight. Thank you very much for coming in Sir. It's interesting. 20 years down the line we have seen how the telecom revolution has changed the lives of so many Indians. In fact an irony, now we have more mobile phones in India than people have access to toilets. Then how did that actually happen? On one hand phones and such a basic living need?
Sam Pitroda: When I came here in the early '80's a phone was luxury. We had two million phones for 750 million people. Based on my background, and whatever little I knew about telecom, I was convinced that telecom will change the face of this country and in Rajiv Gandhi I found the political will. I had the know-how, he had the political will, and we clicked. So that gave me the platform to do things we could all collectively do. Though I get lots of credit for it, but a large number of people worked on it for years and years. So the idea then was to create a real Indian model of development, rural telecom, indigenous development, ancilliary industries, young talent, capacity building. People did not understand these things. People thought we were crazy. What are these computers? Software? Today, 20 years down the road we have not only 800 million mobile phones, but we also generate 75 billion dollars worth of software export.
NDTV: But do you think this whole issue of corruption has become so insidious in the system, that every policy decision is questioned? The fact is clearly that there was corruption in the allocation of licences. We have seen whole coal-gate issue, again a policy decision questioned, because of loss to the national exchequer. How much in this is genuine corruption? How much in this is looking at decisions? Which seems to be, well there seems to be no accountability to the taxpayer?
Sam Pitroda: I think the key is to bring about more transparency and accountability in the system. You know we have this Right To Information, but unfortunately lots of our information is locked up in our early file. So when do we digitize that file and make it accessible to a large number of people in real time? Today when I ask for something with the RTI it may take me 30 days to get the information. A lot of this should be online. Information brings about openness, accessibility, connectivity and transparency. So how do we organise information and that is one thing I am trying to work on today, with the help of lots of other people. I see a great need in this country to build a public information infrastructure and democratise information. Information is not democratized. Communication has been democratized, but information is still controlled by very few people. It can be manipulated, it can be restructured and that is why there is confusion.
NDTV: We have just seen GDP figures out which are dismal. Again, the whole cynicism, the negativity, people saying the India story is over. What would you say, in your perspective as somebody who's been in government, out, and back again?
Sam Pitroda: I would say we have some glitches. I would say India will continue to grow from 8-10% for the next 20-25 years to come, because we have 550 million young below the age of 25. We've got to learn to restructure our institutions. We are not really restructuring our institutions; our institutions are obsolete, old. We are not really in tune with the needs of the 21st century. At times I said we have a 19th century mind set, a 20th century processes and 21st century needs.
NDTV: Given exactly that, do you feel, that India, in a sense, has been let down by its government, by its governance? And even by its politicians across the board. So it's really three different aspects, both the people who are elected to power, the politician and the Opposition; and really the whole expectation.
Sam Pitroda: There are many ways to look at it, that's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it, is why didn't Indians vote in somebody with a majority? This is what you get when you vote in a coalition government. In Rajiv Gandhi's time the advantage was we were in majority, so we could take a different posture. So at the Federal level you need a substantial majority to push the national agenda. Another aspect of this is that our States are becoming stronger which is good. We want this de-centralisation; we want lots of things to happen at the State level. So may be the Federal is a little weak right now, but States are getting stronger. So if we can put in a strong Centre, with again a clear agenda, the broad road map for the decades, I think we can accomplish a lot. That's the challenge for all of us.
NDTV: Mr Pitroda, we have been talking about policy paralysis, there's been one very outspoken person on that, that's of course Kiran Mazumdar Shaw, who joins me now live from Bangalore. Kiran Shaw thanks so much for joining me tonight and would you say Sam Pitroda is brave man to be in Government this time?
Kiran Mazumdar Shaw: Well I think he is a very important man to be in the government because he has a big, big transformational role to play. That's what we need to get ourselves out of this policy paralysis and you know Sam is someone whom I know and admire very much. We have work very closely in the National Innovation Council, so if there is one question I would like to ask Sam, you've taken on grand challenges in the computer sector and super computers. You brought about transformation in the telecom sector, so at this point of time, when India is really sort of challenged in its own ineptitude, what would you say are the three big, grand challenges that we should be addressing to bring about transformational change?
Sam Pitroda: Kiran, I am very clear. I would say in India the main focus has to be on process re-engineering. All over processes are based on the British Raj and we are computerising it. I would like, on a very large scale, process re-engineering, administrative reform. I mean if you have to travel to some country you have to take permission from the Prime Minister of India. If you have to hire somebody, it takes six months to hire somebody in Government. I mean all these processes are obsolete. You get a budget, but you can't spend because some little guy, somewhere in the department, in finance, dictates what you can do. I mean let's wake up. These processes don't make sense. That's one. Two, I would also focus on similarly on judicial reforms. So you have administrative reforms, judiciary reforms and political reforms. These are three big items. Underneath that there are lots of issues.
NDTV: One point you often made is that somehow we seem to feel that India needs to be run by its politicians, and one thing you advocated, that perhaps a non-politician even in Rashtrapati Bhavan, and Sam Pitroda may not be bad name for President, you tweeted that.
Kiran Mazumdar Shaw: I have rooted for him. I think Sam will make a great President because we need leadership. We need strong leadership, someone who is a man of the world. That's what Sam is.
NDTV: Kiran Mazumdar Shaw, thank you so much for joining us tonight. And Mr Pitroda, she was not the only one rooting for you as President, the ndtv.com poll has you among the frontrunners.
Sam Pitroda: I am not aware of it.
NDTV: What...
Sam Pitroda: I am not aware of it. No, but I have been told that there are several polls and people have been very generous, that's all I can tell you.
NDTV: Do you think it's because there is sense of frustration, perhaps the idea that only a politician can lead the country? We saw of course the Prime Minister made a very successful Finance Minister in 1991, when he was brought out of Chairman of UGC, and as Finance Minister he led India into liberalization.
Sam Pitroda: I don't know. I am not very close to all of that you know. I am putting my nose on the ground and doing my work, I am not much into reading papers and watching TVs and all that. I hardly get time. I don't read newspapers at all, I get 500 emails a day, I can't keep up. I am not humanly capable of handling all of it. So if there is important news it will come to you any way, and if there is some other news, which is of no importance, then why worry about it? But I think our systems are such; especially the way we elect our people and President and all, there is very little room for outside intervention. I mean even look at our government service, we need domain experts to be able to come into the government to run many of these Ministries, but there is very little outside intervention in administration.
NDTV: How has that experience been like for you, because we have seen Nandan Nilekani also faced many of the same problems? 20 years ago; even he said he consulted you before he decided to take on the job or not, and he faced many, many roadblocks. How does that actually work, when you get in people of the best minds, who are not in government, yet bring them in? Is that experience a happy one?
Sam Pitroda: I think so. I had a very happy experience. I think people have been very nice, very supportive, but once in a while you do get some resistance. But that happens everywhere so don't focus on it. Just look at good stuff in everybody. You know there are always issues here and there, but you don't get hung up on it then don't do it.
NDTV: Interesting, 20 years, one Prime Minister to another. What are the differences you have seen between the two Prime Ministers? I know what the numbers are, but otherwise?
Sam Pitroda: Well a lot of people don't realise that I worked for Rajiv Gandhi. After that, when Rajiv Gandhi lost elections I was advised to resign, and I decided not to resign. I said look, I must recognize that I am doing it for India and Indians, and not for one party or others. Rajiv Gandhi just lost elections, he and I had a conversation and he also agreed that I must continue. All my friends said you must resign because you are too closely associated with Rajiv Gandhi. I said no. If VP Singh decides to fire me, that's his privilege, he is the Prime Minister. I am going to continue, so I continued with VP Singh. I was Chairman of the Telecom Commission while he was Prime Minister. I continued with Chandrasekhar, I continued with Narasimha Rao. People don't remember these things. I continued with Deve Gowda and finally I had to leave because I wasn't spending enough time. And then, when there was the right window of opportunity, I thought this was the right time to come back and do what needs to be done. I would say people have been very generous to me, they have been very nice to me and I am thankful to all of them.
NDTV: Well we have another question from someone also, who also worked in those heady Rajiv days. Mani Shankar Aiyar has this question to ask you.
Sam Pitroda: Great, wow.
Mani Shankar Aiyar: You worked very, very closely with Rajiv Gandhi and now you've been working very closely Manmohan Singh. What is the difference you see in what you are asked to solve, the methods by which you solve it and the extent to which there is support given to your endeavours in these two different regimes?
Sam Pitroda: Thanks Mani, it's really good to see you. I think in Rajiv Gandhi's time there was a different energy, a different enthusiasm, different ecosystem. Partly we were all young; you know I was in my '40's and not '70's. So I think that was a different era, it was a time of great deal of enthusiasm. Today the mood is very different. But I must say that Prime Minister has been very kind, Manmohan Singh. He has always given me a free hand, and all the support I need. I cannot think of anything where he has not given me support. I have not been affected by any policy decision here or there. If I ask for something he has supported it, but over all, the ecosystem is very different, that's the difference I see.
NDTV: You just made that point and one big challenge we know, some thing you were very closely associated with, was of course the whole plan to modernize the Railways. We just had another Railway derailment, more people dying; and the whole question of the modernisation plan, which you had actually over seen has been derailed by the passenger fare issue. Did that disappoint you?
Sam Pitroda: Yes, It did, but I understand that this is the way of life in India. We spend lots of time, I personally spend four months focusing on the Railways, learning a lot and along with me I had some very distinguish people. Deepak Parekh, Maya Verma, Rajiv Lal, Chatterji, others. And hundreds of other people from the Railways and Railway Board helped us in putting together this plan. Our idea was to spend 200 billion dollars roughly, to really completely modernise Railways, and we realised that without modernization, there is no safety. I mean today's accident is a good example and unfortunately we might see more of this. I don't like it, you don't like it, but we've got to invest in modernising our basic infrastructure. Railway is transportation for the poor. Railways, according to me, will change the face of the country if you do it right again. But you can't just tinker with it; you've got to think of a generational change.
NDTV: I have with me someone from the Trinamool, Minister Saugata Ray. And Mr Ray, we've just been discussing the issue of Railway modernization. We've seen yet another accident, the whole issue of linking safety and modernization. Yet the Trinamool, and many felt that what happened with the Railway Budget is something the Trinamool should not have done. Being obdurate. Getting Dinesh Trivedi to resign over railway fares actually put Indian Railways back more than 20 years.
Saugata Ray: No, I would not agree that any harm has happened to the Railways. The party has always been against raising of passenger fares, especially the lowest class. So that view of the party still prevails. But I would like to know from Mr Pitroda that earlier also he was given a project for introducing fibre optics along the railway lines through the Railtel Corporation. And recently also he has submitted a report on modernisation and resource mobilization for the Railways. How does he feel that the Railways have fared in implementing the ideas?
Sam Pitroda: Our job was basically to submit recommendations. Ultimately the Railway Board and Rail department has to implement. I think in fibre optics there has been a lot of progress. I just came out of a meeting this morning where in fibre optics, Railtel is implementing connectivity to 250,000 panchayats. They are on of the three key players with BSNL, Railtel and Powergrid. So that work is going on. I think the fibre optics project is going pretty well. The modernization of Railways was just submitted, you know, a couple of months ago and it's up to the Railway Board to execute, you know, that's not our job.
NDTV: Mr Saugata Ray thanks so much for joining us tonight. Mr Pitroda, Is there a problem that these reports often seem to go into the red tape cycle of the Indian government, they may well be in the dustbin now. Who's looking and implementing them?
Sam Pitroda: Fortunately because of the web dustbins do not matter because these reports are out in cyberspace read by million and millions in this world. When it is a piece of paper it goes in the dustbin and nobody knows at all. Now it's cyberspace, people in Russia, China, India, Japan, everybody is reading that report. It's accessible to everybody, so you can't say it's in the dustbin. That report will come alive some day.
NDTV: How is it possible to stay detached with your report, well what happens to your report? Is there any sense of frustration, you spent many man hours, the best minds working on it, yet the recommendation is not implemented?
Sam Pitroda: You can't think about frustration, if you think of frustration in India the best thing is not to get up in the morning. You get up in the morning with the same enthusiasm and you just go do things that need to be done. Some times some work and some do not work. If you work on 50 things, 10 work now and 40 do not work. Pick up another 10, they work next week, keep pushing the overall agenda, don't get disappointed.
NDTV: I think one of your avatars was Head of the National Knowledge Commission. So many students have questions about what is happening with IIT's. Kapil Sibal is very keen on one nation, one examination and major changes. Resistance to change, we have seen opponents. Why are our politicians meddling with 'A' grade institutions? I've got on the line now a young man, a well known author, Chetan Bhagat, a former IITian. Chetan, now if I could I ask you, Mr Sam Pitroda was Head of the National Knowledge Commission, and in focus now has been the Class 12 results on high cuts offs. We have already discussed before the near 100% cut offs, and also now confusion over IIT, and the Government arguments that this will restore the sanctity of the Class 12 Board system. Your views perhaps, and anything you would like to ask Mr Sam Pitroda?
Chetan Bhagat: Yes. Thanks Sonia for giving me the chance. Mr Pitroda, I know it is not something which may come out. But what will happen is the State Boards like the Assam Board and the Maharashtra Board, who will have a big weightage in the IIT entrance, and given how parochial and regional India gets, there will be pressure. They will say 'Oh kids from Assam must get into IIT'. So everyone do lenient marking because we want to send the maximum kids from Assam to the IITs. All these kind of weird things will start happening. You will normalize the scores, but Assam kids would have done really well. These are not advisable. We have 30% weightage given for practical marks and those are given on nepotism in Class 12. You are using that to enter into an IIT. It is destroying something and I think the broader picture is that it is a place of excellence and a politician is not there to, you know he is trying to please everybody. Even if he announces a lottery for getting into the IITs, a lot of people would support it, because they can't get in any way. But that doesn't mean you should do that. Excellence is a little bit exclusive and a politician has to be inclusive. I think a politician should not run places of excellence. There is an inherent problem in that. It is not just this modification and it is not just the IITs. I don't know. I would love your views on that.
Sam Pitroda: I agree the place of excellence has to be place of excellence, and you know there is price to pay and it may require backing off, from little bit of equity.
NDTV: But do you think that we are going, actually, at least in Institutional excellence, we are going the other way around; merit is increasing. It is taking a back seat.
Sam Pitroda: I have very different view of education and I have been talking about it now on many global forums specially In US and Europe. I have been saying education, as we understand today, has been essentially obsolete. Who decided it should take four years to get a degree? Who decided that you need a certificate when you finish four years? The very basic model of education has changed. Learning models have changed. I don't learn the same way today the way I learned when I was a kid. What's the teacher's role? Should teachers really be delivering the content and creating content? I don't need teachers to deliver content and teachers to create content. What do I need teachers for? Maybe I need a mentor. So I think our entire education system world over is up for grabs. I believe this is going to dismantle over a period of time, and it will start from an advanced country because it costs 40,000 dollars tuition to go into a great university, it's not sustainable, not sustainable, so I think just wait.
NDTV: That's a fascinating perspective there. Chetan Bhagat thanks so much for joining us with that question. It was great to have you on the show. The challenges of course of dealing with many different mind sets, many different India's at one time. One issue which created controversy when you were Head of the National Knowledge Commission were your views on reservations, and many at that time had protested. Many politicians had protested and yet many asked questions during a recent campaign. Rahul Gandhi had introduced you by your cast, Vishwakarma in Uttar Pradesh.
NDTV: Do your views on reservations In India still stand? Is your cast still a calling card?
Sam Pitroda: That's not the point. I think the media has a great ability to twist things a little bit. The fact that I am the son of a carpenter, you can't take that away from me. I am proud of it, nothing's wrong with it. But when I went to college, got my degree in Telecom in IT, in computers, I redefined myself. Nobody remembers that I am the son of a carpenter. I am a telecom engineer world over, not only in India. You go to Brazil, Canada, US, you go to any major country and you say Sam Pitroda, every body knows he is a telecom guy, so it's okay to be the son of a carpenter.
NDTV: But why should it have defined you? You say nobody asks what your cast is, why should it define you in an Uttar Pradesh election campaign?
Sam Pitroda: I think his message was really different. I think Rahul Gandhi really meant, that if Sam Pitroda, son of a carpenter can accomplish this, you can do it too. I tell people that my story is the story of India. Somebody asked me what did India give you? I said everything. If I could go to college for 100 dollars for a Master's degree in Physics, show me a country where you can do that. So I think the message there was, don't worry about how poor you are, don't worry about your cast, your parents, you can do things in this country, that was the message, it got twisted.
NDTV: Sam Pitroda as we end tonight really I think your story in some way sums up the huge potential, the growth, the many, many millions of India's story. Tell us a bit about it, I think people who see today don't realise that it began actually in a small village.
Sam Pitroda: I was born in a small tribal village in Orissa, no electricity, no water, no doctor, no pharmacies, no school, nothing, My Mother had eight kids, all delivered at home, zero cost of deliveries. My father had a 4th grade education, he migrated from Gujarat to Orissa looking for opportunities. Because it was very Gandhian, being Gujarati in Orissa. Can you imagine that, the only connection with Gujarat was Gandhi and Sardar Patel. So when Sardar Patel died my parents decided to send us to boarding school in Vallabh Vidyanagar. So I went to college in Baroda. I was the first in my family to graduate from college, BSc in Physics, then Masters in Physics and then decided to do a PhD in Physics from the USA. I liked Physics. I went to the US and found out it takes seven years to get a PhD. I had a girl friend in Baroda so I changed my field to electrical engineering and got my degree in nine months, then called my girl friend, got married. The entire family is settled in the USA. I had never been to Delhi so I came there in 1979, tried to make a phone call to my wife. Unable to make a phone call, so with a little bit of ignorance, I would say little bit of ignorance, lot of arrogance, said I'm going to fix this thing, said I'm going to devote my next ten years to work on India's telecom. Plus I was convinced that India would benefit from telecom, IT, software. Then I found Rajiv connection and that sort of changed the whole thing. That changed my life. If I had known everything I know today I would never have tried it. So I believe ignorance is a great asset.
NDTV: I think many in India are happy that you couldn't make that phone call to your wife. Sam Pitroda, thank you so much for joining me tonight.
Here's the full transcript of the interview:
NDTV: Good evening and welcome to Your Call. Tonight's guest is a man who helped lay the foundation of India's telecom revolution as an adviser to the then Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi; he is now back as an adviser to another Prime Minister. Sam Pitroda joins me tonight. Thank you very much for coming in Sir. It's interesting. 20 years down the line we have seen how the telecom revolution has changed the lives of so many Indians. In fact an irony, now we have more mobile phones in India than people have access to toilets. Then how did that actually happen? On one hand phones and such a basic living need?
Sam Pitroda: When I came here in the early '80's a phone was luxury. We had two million phones for 750 million people. Based on my background, and whatever little I knew about telecom, I was convinced that telecom will change the face of this country and in Rajiv Gandhi I found the political will. I had the know-how, he had the political will, and we clicked. So that gave me the platform to do things we could all collectively do. Though I get lots of credit for it, but a large number of people worked on it for years and years. So the idea then was to create a real Indian model of development, rural telecom, indigenous development, ancilliary industries, young talent, capacity building. People did not understand these things. People thought we were crazy. What are these computers? Software? Today, 20 years down the road we have not only 800 million mobile phones, but we also generate 75 billion dollars worth of software export.
NDTV: But do you think this whole issue of corruption has become so insidious in the system, that every policy decision is questioned? The fact is clearly that there was corruption in the allocation of licences. We have seen whole coal-gate issue, again a policy decision questioned, because of loss to the national exchequer. How much in this is genuine corruption? How much in this is looking at decisions? Which seems to be, well there seems to be no accountability to the taxpayer?
Sam Pitroda: I think the key is to bring about more transparency and accountability in the system. You know we have this Right To Information, but unfortunately lots of our information is locked up in our early file. So when do we digitize that file and make it accessible to a large number of people in real time? Today when I ask for something with the RTI it may take me 30 days to get the information. A lot of this should be online. Information brings about openness, accessibility, connectivity and transparency. So how do we organise information and that is one thing I am trying to work on today, with the help of lots of other people. I see a great need in this country to build a public information infrastructure and democratise information. Information is not democratized. Communication has been democratized, but information is still controlled by very few people. It can be manipulated, it can be restructured and that is why there is confusion.
NDTV: We have just seen GDP figures out which are dismal. Again, the whole cynicism, the negativity, people saying the India story is over. What would you say, in your perspective as somebody who's been in government, out, and back again?
Sam Pitroda: I would say we have some glitches. I would say India will continue to grow from 8-10% for the next 20-25 years to come, because we have 550 million young below the age of 25. We've got to learn to restructure our institutions. We are not really restructuring our institutions; our institutions are obsolete, old. We are not really in tune with the needs of the 21st century. At times I said we have a 19th century mind set, a 20th century processes and 21st century needs.
NDTV: Given exactly that, do you feel, that India, in a sense, has been let down by its government, by its governance? And even by its politicians across the board. So it's really three different aspects, both the people who are elected to power, the politician and the Opposition; and really the whole expectation.
Sam Pitroda: There are many ways to look at it, that's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it, is why didn't Indians vote in somebody with a majority? This is what you get when you vote in a coalition government. In Rajiv Gandhi's time the advantage was we were in majority, so we could take a different posture. So at the Federal level you need a substantial majority to push the national agenda. Another aspect of this is that our States are becoming stronger which is good. We want this de-centralisation; we want lots of things to happen at the State level. So may be the Federal is a little weak right now, but States are getting stronger. So if we can put in a strong Centre, with again a clear agenda, the broad road map for the decades, I think we can accomplish a lot. That's the challenge for all of us.
NDTV: Mr Pitroda, we have been talking about policy paralysis, there's been one very outspoken person on that, that's of course Kiran Mazumdar Shaw, who joins me now live from Bangalore. Kiran Shaw thanks so much for joining me tonight and would you say Sam Pitroda is brave man to be in Government this time?
Kiran Mazumdar Shaw: Well I think he is a very important man to be in the government because he has a big, big transformational role to play. That's what we need to get ourselves out of this policy paralysis and you know Sam is someone whom I know and admire very much. We have work very closely in the National Innovation Council, so if there is one question I would like to ask Sam, you've taken on grand challenges in the computer sector and super computers. You brought about transformation in the telecom sector, so at this point of time, when India is really sort of challenged in its own ineptitude, what would you say are the three big, grand challenges that we should be addressing to bring about transformational change?
Sam Pitroda: Kiran, I am very clear. I would say in India the main focus has to be on process re-engineering. All over processes are based on the British Raj and we are computerising it. I would like, on a very large scale, process re-engineering, administrative reform. I mean if you have to travel to some country you have to take permission from the Prime Minister of India. If you have to hire somebody, it takes six months to hire somebody in Government. I mean all these processes are obsolete. You get a budget, but you can't spend because some little guy, somewhere in the department, in finance, dictates what you can do. I mean let's wake up. These processes don't make sense. That's one. Two, I would also focus on similarly on judicial reforms. So you have administrative reforms, judiciary reforms and political reforms. These are three big items. Underneath that there are lots of issues.
NDTV: One point you often made is that somehow we seem to feel that India needs to be run by its politicians, and one thing you advocated, that perhaps a non-politician even in Rashtrapati Bhavan, and Sam Pitroda may not be bad name for President, you tweeted that.
Kiran Mazumdar Shaw: I have rooted for him. I think Sam will make a great President because we need leadership. We need strong leadership, someone who is a man of the world. That's what Sam is.
NDTV: Kiran Mazumdar Shaw, thank you so much for joining us tonight. And Mr Pitroda, she was not the only one rooting for you as President, the ndtv.com poll has you among the frontrunners.
Sam Pitroda: I am not aware of it.
NDTV: What...
Sam Pitroda: I am not aware of it. No, but I have been told that there are several polls and people have been very generous, that's all I can tell you.
NDTV: Do you think it's because there is sense of frustration, perhaps the idea that only a politician can lead the country? We saw of course the Prime Minister made a very successful Finance Minister in 1991, when he was brought out of Chairman of UGC, and as Finance Minister he led India into liberalization.
Sam Pitroda: I don't know. I am not very close to all of that you know. I am putting my nose on the ground and doing my work, I am not much into reading papers and watching TVs and all that. I hardly get time. I don't read newspapers at all, I get 500 emails a day, I can't keep up. I am not humanly capable of handling all of it. So if there is important news it will come to you any way, and if there is some other news, which is of no importance, then why worry about it? But I think our systems are such; especially the way we elect our people and President and all, there is very little room for outside intervention. I mean even look at our government service, we need domain experts to be able to come into the government to run many of these Ministries, but there is very little outside intervention in administration.
NDTV: How has that experience been like for you, because we have seen Nandan Nilekani also faced many of the same problems? 20 years ago; even he said he consulted you before he decided to take on the job or not, and he faced many, many roadblocks. How does that actually work, when you get in people of the best minds, who are not in government, yet bring them in? Is that experience a happy one?
Sam Pitroda: I think so. I had a very happy experience. I think people have been very nice, very supportive, but once in a while you do get some resistance. But that happens everywhere so don't focus on it. Just look at good stuff in everybody. You know there are always issues here and there, but you don't get hung up on it then don't do it.
NDTV: Interesting, 20 years, one Prime Minister to another. What are the differences you have seen between the two Prime Ministers? I know what the numbers are, but otherwise?
Sam Pitroda: Well a lot of people don't realise that I worked for Rajiv Gandhi. After that, when Rajiv Gandhi lost elections I was advised to resign, and I decided not to resign. I said look, I must recognize that I am doing it for India and Indians, and not for one party or others. Rajiv Gandhi just lost elections, he and I had a conversation and he also agreed that I must continue. All my friends said you must resign because you are too closely associated with Rajiv Gandhi. I said no. If VP Singh decides to fire me, that's his privilege, he is the Prime Minister. I am going to continue, so I continued with VP Singh. I was Chairman of the Telecom Commission while he was Prime Minister. I continued with Chandrasekhar, I continued with Narasimha Rao. People don't remember these things. I continued with Deve Gowda and finally I had to leave because I wasn't spending enough time. And then, when there was the right window of opportunity, I thought this was the right time to come back and do what needs to be done. I would say people have been very generous to me, they have been very nice to me and I am thankful to all of them.
NDTV: Well we have another question from someone also, who also worked in those heady Rajiv days. Mani Shankar Aiyar has this question to ask you.
Sam Pitroda: Great, wow.
Mani Shankar Aiyar: You worked very, very closely with Rajiv Gandhi and now you've been working very closely Manmohan Singh. What is the difference you see in what you are asked to solve, the methods by which you solve it and the extent to which there is support given to your endeavours in these two different regimes?
Sam Pitroda: Thanks Mani, it's really good to see you. I think in Rajiv Gandhi's time there was a different energy, a different enthusiasm, different ecosystem. Partly we were all young; you know I was in my '40's and not '70's. So I think that was a different era, it was a time of great deal of enthusiasm. Today the mood is very different. But I must say that Prime Minister has been very kind, Manmohan Singh. He has always given me a free hand, and all the support I need. I cannot think of anything where he has not given me support. I have not been affected by any policy decision here or there. If I ask for something he has supported it, but over all, the ecosystem is very different, that's the difference I see.
NDTV: You just made that point and one big challenge we know, some thing you were very closely associated with, was of course the whole plan to modernize the Railways. We just had another Railway derailment, more people dying; and the whole question of the modernisation plan, which you had actually over seen has been derailed by the passenger fare issue. Did that disappoint you?
Sam Pitroda: Yes, It did, but I understand that this is the way of life in India. We spend lots of time, I personally spend four months focusing on the Railways, learning a lot and along with me I had some very distinguish people. Deepak Parekh, Maya Verma, Rajiv Lal, Chatterji, others. And hundreds of other people from the Railways and Railway Board helped us in putting together this plan. Our idea was to spend 200 billion dollars roughly, to really completely modernise Railways, and we realised that without modernization, there is no safety. I mean today's accident is a good example and unfortunately we might see more of this. I don't like it, you don't like it, but we've got to invest in modernising our basic infrastructure. Railway is transportation for the poor. Railways, according to me, will change the face of the country if you do it right again. But you can't just tinker with it; you've got to think of a generational change.
NDTV: I have with me someone from the Trinamool, Minister Saugata Ray. And Mr Ray, we've just been discussing the issue of Railway modernization. We've seen yet another accident, the whole issue of linking safety and modernization. Yet the Trinamool, and many felt that what happened with the Railway Budget is something the Trinamool should not have done. Being obdurate. Getting Dinesh Trivedi to resign over railway fares actually put Indian Railways back more than 20 years.
Saugata Ray: No, I would not agree that any harm has happened to the Railways. The party has always been against raising of passenger fares, especially the lowest class. So that view of the party still prevails. But I would like to know from Mr Pitroda that earlier also he was given a project for introducing fibre optics along the railway lines through the Railtel Corporation. And recently also he has submitted a report on modernisation and resource mobilization for the Railways. How does he feel that the Railways have fared in implementing the ideas?
Sam Pitroda: Our job was basically to submit recommendations. Ultimately the Railway Board and Rail department has to implement. I think in fibre optics there has been a lot of progress. I just came out of a meeting this morning where in fibre optics, Railtel is implementing connectivity to 250,000 panchayats. They are on of the three key players with BSNL, Railtel and Powergrid. So that work is going on. I think the fibre optics project is going pretty well. The modernization of Railways was just submitted, you know, a couple of months ago and it's up to the Railway Board to execute, you know, that's not our job.
NDTV: Mr Saugata Ray thanks so much for joining us tonight. Mr Pitroda, Is there a problem that these reports often seem to go into the red tape cycle of the Indian government, they may well be in the dustbin now. Who's looking and implementing them?
Sam Pitroda: Fortunately because of the web dustbins do not matter because these reports are out in cyberspace read by million and millions in this world. When it is a piece of paper it goes in the dustbin and nobody knows at all. Now it's cyberspace, people in Russia, China, India, Japan, everybody is reading that report. It's accessible to everybody, so you can't say it's in the dustbin. That report will come alive some day.
NDTV: How is it possible to stay detached with your report, well what happens to your report? Is there any sense of frustration, you spent many man hours, the best minds working on it, yet the recommendation is not implemented?
Sam Pitroda: You can't think about frustration, if you think of frustration in India the best thing is not to get up in the morning. You get up in the morning with the same enthusiasm and you just go do things that need to be done. Some times some work and some do not work. If you work on 50 things, 10 work now and 40 do not work. Pick up another 10, they work next week, keep pushing the overall agenda, don't get disappointed.
NDTV: I think one of your avatars was Head of the National Knowledge Commission. So many students have questions about what is happening with IIT's. Kapil Sibal is very keen on one nation, one examination and major changes. Resistance to change, we have seen opponents. Why are our politicians meddling with 'A' grade institutions? I've got on the line now a young man, a well known author, Chetan Bhagat, a former IITian. Chetan, now if I could I ask you, Mr Sam Pitroda was Head of the National Knowledge Commission, and in focus now has been the Class 12 results on high cuts offs. We have already discussed before the near 100% cut offs, and also now confusion over IIT, and the Government arguments that this will restore the sanctity of the Class 12 Board system. Your views perhaps, and anything you would like to ask Mr Sam Pitroda?
Chetan Bhagat: Yes. Thanks Sonia for giving me the chance. Mr Pitroda, I know it is not something which may come out. But what will happen is the State Boards like the Assam Board and the Maharashtra Board, who will have a big weightage in the IIT entrance, and given how parochial and regional India gets, there will be pressure. They will say 'Oh kids from Assam must get into IIT'. So everyone do lenient marking because we want to send the maximum kids from Assam to the IITs. All these kind of weird things will start happening. You will normalize the scores, but Assam kids would have done really well. These are not advisable. We have 30% weightage given for practical marks and those are given on nepotism in Class 12. You are using that to enter into an IIT. It is destroying something and I think the broader picture is that it is a place of excellence and a politician is not there to, you know he is trying to please everybody. Even if he announces a lottery for getting into the IITs, a lot of people would support it, because they can't get in any way. But that doesn't mean you should do that. Excellence is a little bit exclusive and a politician has to be inclusive. I think a politician should not run places of excellence. There is an inherent problem in that. It is not just this modification and it is not just the IITs. I don't know. I would love your views on that.
Sam Pitroda: I agree the place of excellence has to be place of excellence, and you know there is price to pay and it may require backing off, from little bit of equity.
NDTV: But do you think that we are going, actually, at least in Institutional excellence, we are going the other way around; merit is increasing. It is taking a back seat.
Sam Pitroda: I have very different view of education and I have been talking about it now on many global forums specially In US and Europe. I have been saying education, as we understand today, has been essentially obsolete. Who decided it should take four years to get a degree? Who decided that you need a certificate when you finish four years? The very basic model of education has changed. Learning models have changed. I don't learn the same way today the way I learned when I was a kid. What's the teacher's role? Should teachers really be delivering the content and creating content? I don't need teachers to deliver content and teachers to create content. What do I need teachers for? Maybe I need a mentor. So I think our entire education system world over is up for grabs. I believe this is going to dismantle over a period of time, and it will start from an advanced country because it costs 40,000 dollars tuition to go into a great university, it's not sustainable, not sustainable, so I think just wait.
NDTV: That's a fascinating perspective there. Chetan Bhagat thanks so much for joining us with that question. It was great to have you on the show. The challenges of course of dealing with many different mind sets, many different India's at one time. One issue which created controversy when you were Head of the National Knowledge Commission were your views on reservations, and many at that time had protested. Many politicians had protested and yet many asked questions during a recent campaign. Rahul Gandhi had introduced you by your cast, Vishwakarma in Uttar Pradesh.
NDTV: Do your views on reservations In India still stand? Is your cast still a calling card?
Sam Pitroda: That's not the point. I think the media has a great ability to twist things a little bit. The fact that I am the son of a carpenter, you can't take that away from me. I am proud of it, nothing's wrong with it. But when I went to college, got my degree in Telecom in IT, in computers, I redefined myself. Nobody remembers that I am the son of a carpenter. I am a telecom engineer world over, not only in India. You go to Brazil, Canada, US, you go to any major country and you say Sam Pitroda, every body knows he is a telecom guy, so it's okay to be the son of a carpenter.
NDTV: But why should it have defined you? You say nobody asks what your cast is, why should it define you in an Uttar Pradesh election campaign?
Sam Pitroda: I think his message was really different. I think Rahul Gandhi really meant, that if Sam Pitroda, son of a carpenter can accomplish this, you can do it too. I tell people that my story is the story of India. Somebody asked me what did India give you? I said everything. If I could go to college for 100 dollars for a Master's degree in Physics, show me a country where you can do that. So I think the message there was, don't worry about how poor you are, don't worry about your cast, your parents, you can do things in this country, that was the message, it got twisted.
NDTV: Sam Pitroda as we end tonight really I think your story in some way sums up the huge potential, the growth, the many, many millions of India's story. Tell us a bit about it, I think people who see today don't realise that it began actually in a small village.
Sam Pitroda: I was born in a small tribal village in Orissa, no electricity, no water, no doctor, no pharmacies, no school, nothing, My Mother had eight kids, all delivered at home, zero cost of deliveries. My father had a 4th grade education, he migrated from Gujarat to Orissa looking for opportunities. Because it was very Gandhian, being Gujarati in Orissa. Can you imagine that, the only connection with Gujarat was Gandhi and Sardar Patel. So when Sardar Patel died my parents decided to send us to boarding school in Vallabh Vidyanagar. So I went to college in Baroda. I was the first in my family to graduate from college, BSc in Physics, then Masters in Physics and then decided to do a PhD in Physics from the USA. I liked Physics. I went to the US and found out it takes seven years to get a PhD. I had a girl friend in Baroda so I changed my field to electrical engineering and got my degree in nine months, then called my girl friend, got married. The entire family is settled in the USA. I had never been to Delhi so I came there in 1979, tried to make a phone call to my wife. Unable to make a phone call, so with a little bit of ignorance, I would say little bit of ignorance, lot of arrogance, said I'm going to fix this thing, said I'm going to devote my next ten years to work on India's telecom. Plus I was convinced that India would benefit from telecom, IT, software. Then I found Rajiv connection and that sort of changed the whole thing. That changed my life. If I had known everything I know today I would never have tried it. So I believe ignorance is a great asset.
NDTV: I think many in India are happy that you couldn't make that phone call to your wife. Sam Pitroda, thank you so much for joining me tonight.
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