Islamabad:
In an exclusive interview to NDTV's Barkha Dutt former Pakistan Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani said he had a very good equation with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, and they together have been able to make a lot improvement in bilateral relations between the two countries. But internal politics in both the countries has come in the way of resolution of key issues between India an Pakistan.
Here is the full transcript of the interview:
NDTV: Perhaps there is no other Pakistani politician who has met the Indian Prime Minister as many times as Pakistan's former Prime Minister Yousuf Gilani. In fact some of these meetings have been in extremely difficult circumstances for both the countries. Now to give his perspective on where the India-Pakistan equation stands, where it has stood in the past, to give us his understanding of some of the issues he has tackled, up close and personally, is Pakistan's former Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani. Thank you so much Sir, pleasure talking to you here in the Presidency in Islamabad. I would like to start by actually saying to you that when we were reading up and looking at the back story of the last 3-4 years for India and Pakistan, one couldn't help but noticing that you individually have met the Indian Prime Minister more times than any Pakistani politician has met any Indian politician, and in very, very trying circumstances. What for you, before I get to the actual equation, would you characterise as the most difficult phase that you saw in the India Pakistan equation?
Yousuf Raza Gilani: First of all, I agree with you that I met Dr Manmohan Singh several times, and under extreme difficult circumstances, and that was during Mumbai incident and also some incidents took place in Afghanistan, in Kabul. And therefore, when I met Dr Manmohan Singh for the first time, that was my initiative. And that was in Colombo, I met him, and then I also met President Karzai. I had a very good meeting with both of them. And also I had a very good meeting with Dr Manmohan Singh in Sharm-el-Sheikh, and then also very good meeting in Thimpu and in Mohali and on the sidelines of...
NDTV: ...various summits.
Yousuf Raza Gilani: ... of various summits and we had a lot of understanding.
NDTV: Now, you give Sharm-el-Sheikh, Sir, as an example of a very good meeting. But, for Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, it created a huge political backlash in India. It was seen as a very contentious joint statement. Can you share with us what actually happened in that fateful meeting, because our understanding is when you and Dr Manmohan Singh had your one-on-one in Sharm-el-Sheikh, then the decision was taken that we must have a joint statement. But the critics in India said it was a controversial joint statement. It had a reference to Baluchistan. It sought to de-link the dialogue process with incidents of terrorism. So in India as you know it became a huge controversy.
Yousuf Raza Gilani: Actually that's the job of the Opposition to embarrass the government and, in fact, I was the unanimously elected Prime Minister, and it was my habit wherever I used to go, I used to take the entire leadership into confidence, including the Opposition. And, in fact, he didn't take the other parties into confidence. But when we did discuss all issues and we agreed that we should not make one incident hostage, and the beneficiary would be the terrorist. Therefore, we agreed that we should move forward. And definitely, when he went back, and there was criticism by the opposition. But his intention was obviously correct, that he wanted to move forward, as a neighbour, we wanted to improve our relationship.
NDTV: You have now met Dr Manmohan Singh so many times. How would you describe his policy on Pakistan, because back home many people see this, or saw it, as something that he really wanted to move forward on, but has been unable to for one reason or the other? Domestic politics has distracted India much like domestic politics has distracted Pakistan. In your many meetings with him, what was your reading of his Pakistan policy?
Yousuf Raza Gilani: In fact, he was coincidentally the second term Prime Minister, and coincidentally I was the longest serving Prime Minister in the history of Pakistan. And that was the reason that I met him several times. Otherwise, in the past, the governments were coming and going and they were never consistent. Therefore, they hardly got the opportunity to meet several times. But we, on our first meeting, we clicked with each other because he seemed to me a very genuine person and he wanted to maintain good relations with neighbours, and it was his desire as a very, very senior politician. And he always discussed with me that he is in the age where he want that at least he should contribute between the two neighbours. And he should be remembered in the history that he really wanted to strengthen the relationship between both the countries, and genuinely tried to move forward and we had achieved certain goals.
NDTV: Why do you think that Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has not been able to visit Pakistan so far, because it's something that has come up repeatedly in your conversations with him. He has accepted the invitation in principle. But even now he has made the statement that, till there is something substantive to deliver on, he would not like to make that visit. What is your own reading? What is your own memory or account of what he has conveyed to you on this front?
Yousuf Raza Gilani: In fact, I also went to Mohali to watch a cricket match and that was on his invitation. And there were lot of critics in the media and others that I should not visit since he is not visiting. Therefore, I think for good relationship, I think there should not be preconditions. But because it would have been his first visit and when our President visited India, he also invited him and he accepted the invitation. And it is the biggest desire that he must visit his hometown, his own village, and he had a lot of fond memories about his village and he is very keen, eager. But at the same time, internationally, he wants that something substantive should happen, so that when he will visit Pakistan he can at least say that we have achieved this.
NDTV: You have handled, as you said, a very difficult time, whether it was the Kabul attack or the Mumbai attacks, and in India you have just seen that our Supreme Court has pronounced a death sentence for Ajmal Kasab. But people continue to feel that the real culprits in Pakistan have not yet been punished. What are the obstacles? We know Pakistan has repeatedly said, or the civilian government has said, the judiciary is taking its own time. The government cannot do anything. But in your many conversations with your Indian counterpart over the years, what is the reason for this delay?
Yousuf Raza Gilani: Actually when we finally agreed to resume dialogues, and there had been lot of meetings with the Foreign Secretaries, with the Foreign Secretary of Pakistan, and Indian Home Secretary with Pakistani Interior Secretary, and Commerce Secretaries and Defence Secretaries, all of them met each other, and even the Ministers, even the Foreign Ministers, they enjoy very cordial relations. And I only feel that maybe there are some problems relating to some laws in Pakistan and in India, and I think we want to resolve those issues.
NDTV: As Prime Minister, what difficulties did you experience? You have said the laws are one of the problems, that is what you have said because of the issue ....
Yousuf Raza Gilani: ... but these are being worked out.
NDTV: But in your understanding, because I know that when you were Prime Minister, also in Sharm-el- Sheikh I was there, in other meetings I have reported, India has repeatedly brought up someone like Hafiz Saeed walking free, and you have been in a situation where you have seen the Indian delegation raising this with you, the Indian Prime Minister raising this with you. The Americans now placing a bounty on his head, calling him the mastermind of the Mumbai attacks. So in your vast experience, Sir, why was your government not able to act against somebody like Hafiz Saeed?
Yousuf Raza Gilani: Actually, I think our laws should be more stringent, and there's need for improvement. And you must have read that our government is taking an initiative and they want, for a fair trial, some more legislation in the Parliament. And it's only two days back I read in the newspaper as well, we are moving in the right direction.
NDTV: And can you share with us why we have stopped short of progress on issues like Sir Creek and Siachen, which, for so many years, we have discussed and heard are nearing resolution? We even read reports in the back channels on Jammu and Kashmir there was a near resolution, but
baat hamesha thodi si reh jaati hai, near resolution
pe hi atak jaati hai. Why is that?
Yousuf Raza Gilani: Dekhiye, yeh pehli martabha hai, aisa hua hai ke humne, at the level of the Prime Ministers,
agar humne joint press conference
mein bhi, humne in core issues
ki batein ki hai. Pehle toh yeh baat bhi nahi hoti thi. Aur humne Sir Creek
ki aur, I must appreciate when I met Dr Manmohan Singh, he said - yes I am ready to discuss all core issues, including Sir Creek, including Siachen, including Jammu and Kashmir and including many other issues, even terrorism and others. And I want that you should put all the cards on the table and I want to resolve them and I want to discuss with you. And we have been discussing many a times on these issues. And at the Secretary level, there have been discussions, but I think maybe with the change of government, but our priorities are the same.
NDTV:Toh faisla kyun nahi ho paya? Agar aap Sir Creek
ka mudda le le, it is probably the simplest among all the other issues to resolve. Why in your experience have you not seen anything on Sir Creek?
Yousuf Raza Gilani:Jo mein feel
karta hun ki Sir Creek
ka aur Siachen
ka yeh issue
aisa tha jo doable
tha and we were very close.
NDTV: How close did you come?
Thoda humse share kare Yousuf Raza Gilani:Uspe yeh ho sakta tha ki Sir Creek
ka toh, on his visit we could have resolved.
Jo Kashmir
ka tha, uspe bhi hum kuch chahte the ke kuch vahan ki leadership
ko bhi involve
kiya jaye. And there had been some formula earlier which was decided between General Musharraf and the Indian government. But there had been some loopholes which we wanted to tighten them,
aur uspe hum kaam kar rahe the, when there was a change of the government here in Pakistan.
Toh mera khayal hai ki our intention is the same, we want to resolve all core issues including all what you have mentioned and we are very serious.
NDTV:Aapko lagta hai ki agar Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, when you were Prime Minister,
yahan aa jate Pakistan
toh there would have been, or could have been an announcement on Sir Creek? Had things reached that stage?
Yousuf Raza Gilani: Maybe yes.
NDTV: That's a yes,
matlab aap...
Yousuf Raza Gilani: ...
Nahi, maybe yes.
NDTV: In your understanding enough progress had been made
ki announcement level
tak baat pahunch gayi thi?
Yousuf Raza Gilani: Uspe yeh tha ki in principle
humne pehle martaba, apni Wazir-e-Aazam Pakistan
ko aur Wazir-e-Aazam India
ko aapne ek rostrum
pe dekha. Aur dono, they were on the same page
ki we are ready to resolve all these core issues, including Jammu and Kashmir, otherwise
is level
pe baat ni hoti thi. NDTV: You have spoken about the change of government here, or you have had your own struggle with the judiciary here. How much is the domestic turbulence in Pakistan impacting the equation in India?
Kyunki ab yeh bhi lagta hai ki dono desh apne hi domestic politics
mein itne uljhe hue hai ki kuch substantive progress
nahi ho pa rahi hai dono mein.
Yousuf Raza Gilani: That's true .
NDTV: Is that one of the reasons?
Yousuf Raza Gilani: It's one of the reasons.
NDTV:Toh yahan par, does the Pakistan government have the backing?
Ek aur yeh bhi perception
hai ki jo military
ki backing
hai woh poori tarah peace process
ke liye nahi hai. In your experience, as Prime Minister, can you share your thoughts of that?
Yousuf Raza Gilani: You are talking about India or Pakistan?
NDTV: In Pakistan first.
Yousuf Raza Gilani:Dekhiye, inke views
kuch bhi ho, but they are part of the government and ultimately they have to toe the government side.
NDTV: So you are saying
ki even if the Pakistan Army had differences of opinion?
Yousuf Raza Gilani: No, I'm not saying they had differences. I said point of view.
Kuch bhi ho, magar at the end of the day everybody has to toe the government line.
NDTV: So did you find that when you were trying to further the peace process with Pakistan, I'm asking you this,
kyunki India
mein ek perception
hai ki civilian government
karna bhi chahe toh Army
karne nahi deti.
Yousuf Raza Gilani: India
mein perception
yeh tha aur hai ki I'm a man of peace, but here the perception is I'm a man of crisis.
NDTV:Yeh kiski perception
hai? Logon ki, ki media
ki yahan par? Kiski perception
hai yeh?
Yousuf Raza Gilani: Idhar, ki jab Parliamentarians
bhi India
se mujhse milne aaye aur Speaker Sahibha
bhi mujhe milne aayi, toh unhone bhi kahan ki aap toh man of peace
ho.
Meine kaha here I'm considered a man of crisis,
toh that time I was still the Prime Minister.
NDTV: And, as Prime Minister, did you find, because you said whatever be the views of the military they would have to toe the government line, did you find that it was very difficult for you to, in a sense, assert the authority of the civilian government?
Yousuf Raza Gilani: Whenever I had meetings Dr Manmohan Singh, I told him as well that I had the backing and the support of the all the political leadership of the country, including the Opposition and including the Army.
NDTV: And when you say that differences
kuch bhi ho, kuch serious differences there on the peace process?
Yousuf Raza Gilani: Dekhiye, meine toh aapko kaha hai jab bhi mein milne gaya toh everybody was on the same page, and I had the backing and the support of the entire leadership of the country, including the Opposition and including the Army.
Is liye meine aapko yeh Sharm-el Sheik
ka yeh bataya, ki when I had the support of the entire nation, and at that time there was a criticism on Dr Manmohan Singh in India, because he didn't take the Opposition on board. But I want to pay the compliments to Madam Sonia Gandhi. When I met Madam Sonia Gandhi in Mohali over a dinner or a cricket match at that time the leadership, the Prime Minister, he did mention to her in my presence, that we had discussed these issues with the Prime Minister of Pakistan, and she appreciated that. That means he had also held the endorsement of the entire party.
NDTV: Right. But
aapne kaha that in India you were described as a man of peace, and in Pakistan you were described as a man of crisis. How do you see the recent crisis that you have been through?
Kyunki Pakistan
mein ab log kehte hai ki military coup
ke zamane khatam ho gaye hai, lekin judicial coup
ke zamane abhi bhi chal raha hay. Is that how you see it? How you see your own ouster because of the judicial verdict?
Yousuf Raza Gilani: In fact, I have been in the Parliament for several years. And for you, I want to remind you, when there was a limited democracy given to India, that means united India, that was through reforms, and that was in 1921. And since 1921 till date and after even my ouster, my son is sitting here and he is also representing the Parliament, whether the province, whether the federal government, whether the national assembly or whether the district governments. But we had been there some way or the other. But here I have experienced that as a Parliamentarian this ouster was a not constitutional ...
NDTV: ... and your successor could meet the same fate?
Kynki jo issue
hai woh resolve
nahi hua na? Yousuf Raza Gilani: I hope not.
NDTV: What is the mind of the government on writing this letter to the Swiss authorities as the court has asked,
because
aapne toh maintain
kiya that the President enjoys immunity, and there was no need to do this. You were hauled up and punished for contempt of court. Many people feel your successor could meet the same fate. So, as a leading person associated with the government and the PPP,
aap ispe kya kahenge?Yousuf Raza Gilani:Mein sirf yeh keh sakta hun, as a senior Vice Chairman of the Party, apart from being the former Prime Minister, and the former Speaker of the National Assembly, I think according to the Constitution, according to even international conventions, all the Head of the States and even the Prime Minister and the Foreign Minister, they enjoy complete and absolute immunity. And in my Constitution, which we have passed ourselves, the Pakistan's People Party will take credit that we give the unanimous Constitution to Pakistan and Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. And now, during my tenure, we have completely, whatever the changes were made by the dictators, we have amended all the Constitution and within original shape we have brought the Constitution. And still in my Constitution, according to the Article 248, he has complete immunity, and therefore, I followed the Constitution.
NDTV: You were also seen as somebody who dared to stand up, on behalf of the civilian government, against the ISI and the military. You were quoted as saying that Pakistan cannot afford to have a state within a state. When you look back, do you stand by that comment or do you worry about the consequences of the comment? Do you feel you were ousted in part because you asserted the authority of civilian government at the supremacy of Parliament?
Yousuf Raza Gilani: This can be the perception, but for every act there is some background. Maybe I have mentioned all these in different contexts. Therefore it may be not relevant here at the moment. But definitely what I'm doing, saying or something, or have taken a stand for the President, that means I have done according to the Constitution. I have no regrets.
NDTV: You have no regrets? You don't regret any statement you made?
Yousuf Raza Gilani: No. No regrets means, I followed the Constitution, and according to the Constitution, the President has complete immunity, and therefore I have asked for it.
NDTV: You made history as the longest serving Prime Minister of Pakistan. Do you believe that the government would be able to complete its full term?
Yousuf Raza Gilani: That's my desire. Because the Prime Ministers, they can come and go, but the Parliament should stay and it should complete its five-year term and we have already completed four and a half years.
NDTV: Now one of the very difficult equations, apart from India that you had to handle, that was the equation with the United States of America. And whether it was the NATO supply routes, whether it was evolving the consensus in Parliament, how would you today describe the equation between Pakistan and the US?
Yousuf Raza Gilani: United States is an extremely important country. And we know, that we have to be on very good terms with United States. But on the basis of a mutual respect and mutual interest. And therefore, they are allies of Pakistan and we are allies of United States. But at the same time we want that we should look after each other's interest. That's it.
NDTV: And has that happened? There have been many controversies over drone attacks, over what happened at Salalah...
Yousuf Raza Gilani: There had been a lot of ups and downs in our relationship. But naturally, we are elected government, we are democratic people, we have come through struggle and we always believe in dialogues. Therefore, we always do dialogues with you and we also do dialogue with United States and with Afghanistan.
NDTV: United States of America is all set to declare the Haqqani group as a terrorist group according to the New York Times. Now this is something which has repeatedly come up between Washington and Islamabad when you were Prime Minister. What is your perspective on this?
Yousuf Raza Gilani: At that time, the CIA and the ISI were working together and lot of high value targets have been achieved with our co-operation. And therefore, we will be jointly working together and therefore, I think, we can work together with understanding.
NDTV: A final question to you Sir, where do you see Pakistan democracy headed? Because this is really, in a sense, is set to be the longest serving civilian government, of which you have been the Prime Minister for four and a half years.
Yousuf Raza Gilani: Nazar laga di aapne...NDTV:Maine nazar laga di? Maine toh nahi lagayi. Aapko kya lagta hai ki yeh ek watershed moment
hai Pakistan democracy
ke liye? Ke abhi bhi aapke institution
ki jo definition
hay - ki kiski kya authority
honi chahiye - woh bahut fragile
hai?
Yousuf Raza Gilani:Dekhiye, there is an in-built system in the Parliament, in the Constitution for delegation of powers. And, all the institutions, they have to work in their own domains, and if we follow the Constitution, we have not restored the Constitution just for publicity. We have restored the Constitution to strengthen the institutions. And therefore, I want to see that we have made a lot of efforts to bring the Constitution back. And each and every dictator, they had amended the Constitution according to their own whims and therefore, our Constitution work became hodge-podge. Neither Parliamentary form of government nor Presidential form of government. Now, it's a Parliamentary form of government. And the Parliament - the Prime Minister, the Ministers and the Minister of States - they are answerable to the Parliament. And so we, as chosen representatives of the people of Pakistan, we are answerable to the Parliament and therefore, we have to work in the ambit of the Constitution.
NDTV: Well, I think either way, for many different reasons, you have indeed made your mark on the history of Pakistan, as it will be recorded. Thank you so much. Pleasure talking to you.
Yousuf Raza Gilani: Thank you.