Charkhari: Firebrand BJP leader and latest entrant into the world of UP politics, Uma Bharti spoke to NDTV extensively during her campaign trail, on returning to the BJP, her unapologetic stand on Ayodhya and her Communist roots.Sreenivasan Jain: Umaji thanks so much for talking to us. This is an interview and a show which is based on a kind of personal and political journey. This is a special place for you in a way, you grew up fairly close from here.
Uma Bharti: Yes, almost here because Bundelkhand is divided into two parts, half is in Uttar Pradesh, half is in Madhya Pradesh. But the language, culture and food habits are the same, especially in Charkhari. I started coming here since I was 8 years old and spent a lot of time here.
Sreenivasan Jain: Tell me little bit about your family because you often site that example that you came from a very poor background. What was your father?
Uma Bharti: I come from a humble background. My father was a landlord, but he passed away at a very young age.
Sreenivasan Jain: How old were you then?
Uma Bharti: I was 9 months old.
Sreenivasan Jain: That young?
Uma Bharti: Yes, but I am the youngest in the family so the other children were older than me. My eldest brother is 20 years older to me.
Sreenivasan Jain: So they were the one who looked after the family?
Uma Bharti: Yes so the time of hardship was only 5 or 6 years because after that one brother became an engineer and we got our lands back from the debt. So after that family was ok but 5 or 6 years were very bad which I remember from distant memory, but my village was very poor.
Sreenivasan Jain: The village was poor?
Uma Bharti: Yes, even though I didn't see so much poverty because till 5 or 6 years I was fed on mother's milk. So I have no experience of being hungry, but I have seen people dying with hunger in my village.
Sreenivasan Jain: So by the time you grew up, the family was in better circumstances?
Uma Bharti: I was 8 or 9 years old when my brother became an engineer and we got our land back. Things totally changed in the family.
Sreenivasan Jain: What was the age when you discovered you have this gift, ability to recite scriptures?
Uma Bharti: It just erupted suddenly when a Pandit came from Banaras and was reciting some religious scriptures. When he made a mistake I got up and corrected him. I was only 6 years old.
Sreenivasan Jain: You were 6 years old that time?
Uma Bharti: Yes and I said this is how it should be. He asked me I knew it and I told him, I have been listening in the village. Those days the only entertainment was Ramayana Katha and he was reciting Ramayana. After that I became famous in the village and then it took two years for my fame to get out from the village. Then Rajmata Vijayraje Scindia saw me at the age of 8 years old and after that it was no looking back.
Sreenivasan Jain: The rest is history.
Uma Bharti: Yes.
Sreenivasan Jain: But your exposure to all this was just going and listening to the Ramayana Katha in the village? Was it a very religious family?
Uma Bharti: No my family was not very religious. But the atmosphere in the village was. In those days it was Ram Lila or Ramayana in the night for entertainment so I used to go and sit by my mother on the lap. She had lost her husband so she needed something to console herself. She used to take me with her. I used to sit on her lap and I had a good memory. It was like a computer.
Sreenivasan Jain: That was the key. Your memory was very good.
Uma Bharti: Yes very good. Actually when I went to America, they tested my memory and my IQ was very good.
Sreenivasan Jain: This was when the Rajmata sent u abroad?
Uma Bharti: No this happened in 1977 when I was 15. I was giving religious discourses in Kumbh at that time. So some NRIs saw me, small girl addressing the crowd and invited me over.
Sreenivasan Jain: So when the Rajmata discovered you, you were giving full recitation of what all?
Uma Bharti: Ramayana, Geeta and Upanishads.
Sreenivasan Jain: And u could just recite verses?
Uma Bharti: I studied them also. I wanted to study because people said the memory will go. So I went to Haridwar and it is very bad that I have to praise myself but the whole literature which has to be concluded in 5 years, I concluded in 1 year.
Sreenivasan Jain: In one year you studied all the Hindu scriptures?
Uma Bharti: Yes all the scriptures. All the 6 shastras. I was between 13 to 14 when I finished it.
Sreenivasan Jain: And even now you can just recite?
Uma Bharti: No not anymore. After my mother's passing away I have lost my memory. I mean I have the memory of an ordinary person but that extra ordinary thing is gone.
Sreenivasan Jain: So today if I ask u to recite something from your memory, can you do it?
Uma Bharti: I can do sometimes, when somebody makes a mistake then it hits me.
Sreenivasan Jain: Can you recite something just now if I were to ask you?
Uma Bharti: I can recite from the Geeta because I like it. Krishna is saying that am sitting in your heart and I'm the guard of your heart and I will not allow anybody to sit in your heart.
Sreenivasan Jain: That's a beautiful expression but somebody was telling me in Raath that it is not just the Hindu scriptures but you had also mastered the Bible and the Quran. Is that true?
Uma Bharti: Yes that's true. I dint want to say it because then you'd think that I'm boasting. I'm surprised that I could do it. I used to talk about the Quran and Bible also. Jesus Christ is also my favourite character. I used to love talking about Jesus Christ. But one incident changed it. I was in Mauritius in 1978 and I started to talk about the Quran and the Muslim community objected. They went to meet the ambassador and they told him to stop me from talking about their religious scriptures. After that I decided not to talk about it. I just don't quote it now.
Sreenivasan Jain: Is that also what pushed you towards Hindutva?
Uma Bharti: I was always a believer of Hindutva. Because of Rajmata Scindia I came in contact with RSS pracharaks. I liked their lifestyle, the kind of austerity they lived in. They're studious people, academically very great people. Doctors, engineers, CAs and they're coming from very affluent backgrounds yet they live a very simple life. That impressed me. Rajmata Scindia had recently joined the Jan Sangh from the Congress so they had an influence on me.
Sreenivasan Jain: So you were exposed to them from an early age?
Uma Bharti: Yes very early age.
Sreenivasan Jain: And that's what drew you to Hindutva?
Uma Bharti: No I was a believer of Hindutva since the very beginning because I was reciting Hindutva scriptures but it became sharpened when I came into their contact. But that particular incident in Mauritius hit me hard.
Sreenivasan Jain: Did that make you anti-Muslim?
Uma Bharti: I am not anti-Muslim because if they're poor I sympathise with them but I don't like fundamentalism. I hate it.
Sreenivasan Jain: Fundamentalism can be of all religions?
Uma Bharti: I will not tolerate religious fundamentalism anywhere.
Sreenivasan Jain: You wouldn't call yourself a Hindu fundamentalist as some do?
Uma Bharti: No I believe that Hindu can't be a fundamental because Hindu believes in 33 crore Devi-Devtas and we worship anywhere. As a Hindu I can go anywhere; I can go to a dargah, I can go to church and even then it doesn't make me less Hindu. So Hindu and fundamentalism do not go together.
Sreenivasan Jain: Then how do you explain what happened at Ayodhya?
Uma Bharti: That's a debatable point and I think there is very little time to talk about it. What made 6th December transform the way it did, is to be debated in this country and it is very necessary actually. I don't think any time is late. It's better to discuss why 6th December took place. I'll never regret participating in it. I am ready to be hanged. I am not going to apologise for my participation in the Ram Janambhoomi movement.
Sreenivasan Jain: I know you've said that but don't you feel bad when you look at images of the structure falling? Not even as a journalist, as an Indian citizen I feel a sense of physical pain when I see those images of what happened, what it meant for India and its repercussions. You don't feel that at all?
Uma Bharti: If you ask about it, there are certain incidents in your life which you can't explain in a few words, in a few minutes or even in a few hours. I participated in it and I don't regret it. Secondly I always wanted the structure to be removed from there but the way it was being removed was something which was just not in the control of anybody. Nobody could control it and I don't blame those who were doing it.
Sreenivasan Jain: You don't blame them?
Uma Bharti: No because of the way they had been humiliated. They were laughed at, they were humiliated, and they were let down like anything. At that time you people weren't there. We cud not say what we wanted to say, the only television totally owned by the state.
Sreenivasan Jain: There was only Newstrack...
Uma Bharti: Yes so we could not say whatever we had to say we had to say in public rallies. And the newspapers, especially the media that was against Hindutva, so called secular, either leaders or media, started saying that Ayodhya was in Afghanistan, or that Ayodhya was in Chhattisgarh, Seeta was the sister of Rama. Anything can happen if you say things like these.
Sreenivasan Jain: Were mainstream newspapers saying things like these?
Uma Bharti: Yes articles were being written. There was this drama company called SAHMAT which was being funded by the HRD Ministry, Arjun Singh. They were sent to Ayodhya where they performed a play which said that Seeta was the sister of Rama. I wonder that only one structure was removed, after the kind of humiliation Hindus had to face during that time.
Sreenivasan Jain: So when you say that crowds couldn't be controlled...
Uma Bharti: I would say that it was the rally of people who felt humiliated. And there were attempts by the Government, funded by the Government...
Sreenivasan Jain: But what is under dispute is the role of someone like you. Were you actually trying to stop the crowd or were you trying to incite the crowd, that is still not clear?
Uma Bharti: Why it is not clear? You have to believe. We tried to stop them.
Sreenivasan Jain: You did try?
Uma Bharti: Yes. Even Ashok Singhal, even Advaniji, even Seshadriji and it is for everybody to witness. So we don't have to prove it every time. We don't have to prove our innocence. That's why I don't talk about it. You're putting us on the guillotine all the time. You all were there so you know the reality. So why do u have to keep checking the reality? Why don't you check with your memory?
Sreenivasan Jain: No because the people who were there said they heard you chanting slogans and inciting the crowd, saying ek dhakka aur do, babri masjid tod do.
Uma Bharti: Did you hear me saying that?
Sreenivasan Jain: I wasn't there.
Uma Bharti: Ok anybody who was there, ask them.
Sreenivasan Jain: They said that they saw you and...
Uma Bharti: No ultimately the lady who was the additional SP there, she's not our friend... ultimately she told in the court that I did not say any such slogan and it came all over the newspapers.
Sreenivasan Jain: You didn't incite the crowd at all?
Uma Bharti: No, I addressed the crowd but this slogan I didn't say.
Sreenivasan Jain: What did you tell the crowd?
Uma Bharti: I don't remember...it happened 20 years back.
Sreenivasan Jain: But was the address inciting them or was it trying to calm them down?
Uma Bharti: Actually we were trying to do the Karseva at the Shilanyas site. So I was telling people to remain in the control and do it turn by turn. The Shilanyas site is far away from the Ram Lalla site. There was some crowd gathered around the disputed structure. That crowd got over it and they started doing it, then this crowd also joined them and then it was difficult to control them. The Narasimha Rao government took time to dismiss the government. We were ready to face the bullets.
Sreenivasan Jain: You say it was a response to a provocation or humiliation....
Uma Bharti: It was not only a response also. It was the outcome of the humiliation.
Sreenivasan Jain: Could it have been different though? I mean if you're provoked and humiliated by people writing articles, isn't the answer to respond by also writing articles or speaking and not an act of violence?
Uma Bharti: See right now there is a chance because private media is there. That time it wasn't possible. We could control ourselves but those innocent Hindus when they heard and read that Seeta was the sister of Rama, they could have killed anyone, and they could have destroyed anything.
Sreenivasan Jain: Then it wasn't a well-orchestrated or choreographed attempt to bring down the structure? You're making it seem like it was spontaneous.
Uma Bharti: It wasn't choreographed.
Sreenivasan Jain: But all the evidence seems to suggest that it was closely planned.
Uma Bharti: I think after all the investigation it was clear that it wasn't choreographed or planned. It is very clear by the law also, by the court order also. Though it is sub- judice as it has been challenged in the higher court but it remains as it was told so we better not talk about it. But am ready to discuss Ayodhya.
Sreenivasan Jain: Is Ayodhya still an issue in the UP elections?
Uma Bharti: In every election it will remain an issue.
Sreenivasan Jain: Is it an issue in this election?
Uma Bharti: In every election, Lok Sabha or Vidhan Sabha. Those who talk about secularism, we are the secular forces, they are the communal forces, actually they're talking about Ayodhya. Why don't you bring development in the political agenda?
Sreenivasan Jain: I agree, but you yourself are saying Ayodhya is an issue.
Uma Bharti: Because you are talking about it. See you didn't talk about development.
Sreenivasan Jain: I am interested in your personal journey and that was an important milestone. But today when you go out and campaign, I was listening to your election speech; it was not a part of the contemporary political campaign. It's not an issue you're going to raise in your own campaign?
Uma Bharti: Technically it can't be because the Shilanayas site was acquired by the Central Government. So actually the State Government cannot play any part right now. Before that it was a part of the State Government but after 1991 after the land acquisition was done, the whole role is of the Centre. But we can do one thing; we can pass a resolution in the Assembly that Central Government should remove the land acquisition and allot the land to the Ram Janambhoomi Nyas. That can be done. I have told people that we will do.
Sreenivasan Jain: Incase you come to power?
Uma Bharti: Yes.
Sreenivasan Jain: The Assembly will pass such a resolution?
Uma Bharti: We can pass the resolution.
Sreenivasan Jain: But for that you will need a majority then.
Uma Bharti: Yes, resolution we can pass. That's the only role we can play because the land is already in the hands of the Central Government.
Sreenivasan Jain: Now there's been a court order which has been stayed by the SC so the matter is sub-judice.
Uma Bharti: Yes that's what I'm saying. You are the one who doesn't want to talk about politics.
Sreenivasan Jain: Tell me about coming back to the BJP, firstly how did it get initiated? Who first called you about your return to the BJP? Was it Nitin Gadkari? Was it the RSS?
Uma Bharti: It was a collective thing, once I decided. I got a good defeat in MP assembly elections because of lack of money. You will not believe but I could not even give Rs 50,000 for one seat.
Sreenivasan Jain: Is that the only reason for the defeat?
Uma Bharti: I can say that.
Sreenivasan Jain: It is not because you didn't have political backing.
Uma Bharti: I didn't have cadre also. I had mass following. The huge masses were the same when I was in the BJP or outside the BJP but there was nobody to control at the booth level. No money and no control, you understand? So I realised I'm making a mistake because I have the same ideology as the BJP and all I can do is damage the BJP. I can scratch, I can't contribute. The ideology is the same. Then I decided to be a part of NDA. So I decided to support Advaniji because it was my life long wish to see him PM. When he was declared the PM candidate, I did not want to leave that chance. My favourite hero, my father was the PM candidate. Can I criticise him? Can I tell a single person to vote against him? No I can't do it. So I went to him with a letter and I told him I want to support you. He said no I don't want your support; I want you to be back in the BJP. I said let's talk about it.
Sreenivasan Jain: This was 2 years ago?
Uma Bharti: Two years ago. After the LS elections I requested him to let me join the NDA. He said no NDA, I want you to be back in the BJP. Then Nitin Gadkari came as the party president, he gave me an open call that Uma Bharti should come back to the BJP fold but I wanted to take some time. Nitin Gadkari wanted some consultation. There was a personal tragedy which struck me and it was difficult to recover from it so I wanted to take some time and remain off politics. That's why it took 2 years. Some personal tragedy and some changes in the BJP.
Sreenivasan Jain: But you had huge problems with the BJP, the famous walkout when you stormed out of the meeting. Subsequently you were expelled, then came back, expelled again. You've had serious problems with the leadership, you felt your voice was being stifled. Are those not problems anymore? Has the BJP changed that much?
Uma Bharti: Actually even at that time the problem was due to my conflict. My problem was that I come from a background which is Communist and I am hardcore Hindutva so I got mixed up.
Sreenivasan Jain: In what way a Communist?
Uma Bharti: My father was a Communist. He used to fight against feudalism and his friend who was also Communist used to fight assembly elections. My father used to support him.
Sreenivasan Jain: So he must have been an atheist as well?
Uma Bharti: Yes he never used to visit temples, nor did my brothers. Even now I force them to visit temples. So you understand the kind of legacy I inherited. It was against Hinduism. I was a hardcore Hindutva by birth.
Sreenivasan Jain: What does that have to do with the BJP?
Uma Bharti: So I got mixed up. My way of fighting was left oriented.
Sreenivasan Jain: That is?
Uma Bharti: Fighting against feudalism. The way of fighting not issues. Issues BJP also fights but the method is different. Their fight is different, my fight is different. I fight directly.
Sreenivasan Jain: But you found the BJP feudal?
Uma Bharti: No I like to fight hand to hand combat when you're protecting somebody innocent. They believe that you have to fight democratically.
Sreenivasan Jain: But what were you fighting about at that time? What was your problem?
Uma Bharti: Khajuraho was in big trouble as they could not feel the spirit after Independence. they were suffering with poverty, they were suffering with the feudal system which existed in the protection of the governments. I didn't like that, that's why BJP picked me. Rajmata Scindia told me, you're a big fighter, you should join the BJP.
Sreenivasan Jain: No but am asking what was your problem with the BJP?
Uma Bharti: That's what I'm saying, once I realised this...
Sreenivasan Jain: Once you walked out, did you realise that it was a feudal set up or that they wouldn't hear your voice?
Uma Bharti: No I will remember only my mistakes, I have decided.
Sreenivasan Jain: You don't want to look at the BJP's mistake?
Uma Bharti: I will not. I will not even think about it. I will think only where I made mistakes. I know I was difficult to adjust with others. You know what I used to think, that I'm right so then everybody has to adjust with me but in democracy it doesn't work. I used to talk in these terms, this is right and this is wrong. I'm right and if I'm right then this is right and when this is right then you have to agree with me.
Sreenivasan Jain: So now you're a new, mellower Uma Bharti? Have you changed?
Uma Bharti: I still believe in what I believe. But the way I put it is totally different now. And I accept the collective decisions.
Sreenivasan Jain: Would you still like to see Advani as PM?
Uma Bharti: I don't want to discuss this debate, who will be PM or who will be CM.
Sreenivasan Jain: I'm asking only because you said he's your hero and it's your dream to see him PM.
Uma Bharti: It was during the 2009 elections.
Sreenivasan Jain: Not anymore?
Uma Bharti: I will not talk about it I have told you. BJP declared him the PM candidate at that time. I wanted to participate in that election and I wanted to campaign. I went to campaign all over the country. Right now I have decided to just not to talk on who will be the CM in UP and who will be the PM in this country.
Sreenivasan Jain: For CM in UP, the BJP's candidate could very well be you. That everyone acknowledges.
Uma Bharti: I'm not interested in this issue. I'm not CM candidate.
Sreenivasan Jain: You're very clear about that?
Uma Bharti: I'm very clear.
Sreenivasan Jain: How can u say that with such conviction, if the party may want you to be...
Uma Bharti: I'm saying it with conviction. It's my conviction.
Sreenivasan Jain: If the party says, Uma Bharti, please be CM?
Uma Bharti: Let the party come to me then I'll tell you.
Sreenivasan Jain: But at the moment you're ruling yourself out?
Uma Bharti: Let my party come to me then I'll tell u. I'm out.
Sreenivasan Jain: Do you think Mr. Advani still has the capability of being Prime Minister?
Uma Bharti: No, I will not discuss Advaniji's capability, you are talking about my father.
Sreenivasan Jain: Some BJP leaders were upset when you came back into the BJP, I am sure you are aware of that?
Uma Bharti: No, I did not see anybody upset, I saw them celebrating. They organised dinners, celebrated my birthday. So either it is merely my imagination or I am not aware of the realities?
Sreenivasan Jain: Rajnath Singh, Vinay Katiyar, all these people have in various ways expressed their unhappiness? This is what has been reported?
Uma Bharti: No, no where did this get reported? You show me one statement of Vinay Katiyar or Rajnath Singh. This is very bad because what you are saying has no proof. What you are saying is not good. It is unfair to them, it is unfair to me.
Sreenivasan Jain: I am only quoting media reports.
Uma Bharti: No, it is unfair to BJP, I think BJP is a soft target of the media.
Sreenivasan Jain: You think BJP is a united house in Utter Pradesh.
Uma Bharti: Yes, definitely.
Sreenivasan Jain: There is no problem within?
Uma Bharti: No.
Sreenivasan Jain: Tell me something, you had a very unorthodox life in many ways. As you said at a very young age, you were caught up in this world of doing the recitation and then the Rajmata adopted you. Has it been a lonely life in some ways?
Uma Bharti: No, it was a crowded life, it is a crowded life.
Sreenivasan Jain: You never craved the normalcy of a marriage, children and all of that which others have?
Uma Bharti: No, I took sanyas when I was fully aware of myself. I took sanyas at the age of 32 when I was a second term MP. People don't know that.
Sreenivasan Jain: You took sanyas when you were very young.
Uma Bharti: No, I took sanyas at the age of 32. I was fully aware of sanyas and I wanted to take it. I wanted to become a sanyasi. It is a personal thing, its upto my guruji only to judge me whether I am a good sanyasi or not.
Sreenivasan Jain: What led you to take sanyas?
Uma Bharti: This is the way I wanted to live.
Sreenivasan Jain: Did you ever have regrets?
Uma Bharti: No, I love it. Well it has nothing to do with my Karmayug. It has established my political life and I think because I am a sanyasi, I could tolerate so much.
Sreenivasan Jain: You don't miss having a companion?
Uma Bharti: I have so many companions in my life. My life is crowded with companions.
Sreenivasan Jain: I mean one life companion?
Uma Bharti: No, I have many life companions.
Sreenivasan Jain: No, I meant like a partner or a husband.
Uma Bharti: I have people who are with me 24*7.
Sreenivasan Jain: One thing I really admire about you is that unlike most politicians you are very candid about everything - your personal life, your public life and I think there is only one time when you actually admitted that somebody close to you actually proposed but that didn't work out?
Uma Bharti: I have forgotten about it. I took sanyas, I am a sanyasi. That happens, many people proposed.
Sreenivasan Jain: Many have proposed?
Uma Bharti: Yes. It happens as they are normal things. If it does not happen then something is wrong, that is what I believe. But I decided to take saniyas.
Sreenivasan Jain: What do you make of Rahul Gandhi? Do you think he is politically mature?
Uma Bharti: He is alright, I don't want to judge him. It is upto people to judge since everybody has a right to participate in the political system.
Sreenivasan Jain: You said that he should learn a little bit of political maturity before he starts making statements?
Uma Bharti: No, he should know about others. He is 40 and I became a MP at 27. So how can I challenge his maturity at the age of 40, when I myself was a very young politician? I became a minister at 36 and Chief Minister at 42. So I have no right and if will do it, then I am wrong, then I will be getting personal. Everybody can be mature at any age, I was mature at the age of 27.
Sreenivasan Jain: Somewhere you had jokingly said, you are like his
maasi, so he...
Uma Bharti: No I did not say that. Forget what I said. What I am saying is that the family should read about others, that's it. I think they are ignorant about others, like he challenged me being an outsider in Bundelkhand was his ignorance.
Sreenivasan Jain: What about Sonia Gandhi, because you were very against her?
Uma Bharti: I am not going to talk about her.
Sreenivasan Jain: Why? The elections are happening and she is the President of the Congress?
Uma Bharti: Your question is apolitical.
Sreenivasan Jain: The political question is that you were very clear that someone like Sonia Gandhi because of her origin should never be Prime Minister, do you still hold that view?
Uma Bharti: I think the question is like Ayodhya. It is a debatable point.
Sreenivasan Jain: So in conclusion tell me, are you satisfied being back in the BJP and the role given to you?
Uma Bharti: Yes, I am very proud and I will make BJP proud of me.
Sreenivasan Jain: Thanks very much indeed for talking to us.