Economist Jagdish Bhagwati speaks to NDTV's Barkha Dutt
New York:
"India's reservation policy has become a disaster" - that was the scathing critique from celebrated economist Jagdish Bhagwati in an interview to NDTV's Buck Stops Here from New York's Columbia University. Weighing in on the ongoing debate around quotas and the sudden ascent of Hardik Patel in Gujarat, Mr Bhagwati said: "Hardik Patel has become Heart-Ache Patel for the Modi government." The economist, who is a close friend of Prime Minister Narendra Modi, said he would tell the PM to increase non-quota seats in all colleges. "Mandal politics definitely need review... Hardik Patel's agitation has struck a chord with the middle class. Where does the middle class go for jobs or for university admissions?" Mr Bhagwati asked.
Following is the transcript of an excerpt from Mr Bhagwati's interview:
NDTV: We are seeing something unprecedented happen in Gujarat and that fight has spilt over here in New York, which is the Patel agitation. You've got this young man who seems to have emerged from nowhere called Hardik Patel, He's basically questioning the entire reservations policy. I used to joke with you that the Modi dilemma is, is he going to be Bhagwati of Bhagwat but you now have even Mohan Bhagwat saying we need to review the reservation policy. You have the Patels threatening to agitate here, so it's going to Patel rap, Patel versus Patel and Modi visits. What do you make of this entire debate around the reservation policy?
Prof Bhagwati: I think you are calling him Hardik Patel but you might as well call him heartache Patel, at least for the Prime Minister. I think the real problem is that we have not really thought through or rethought the whole Mandal Commission approach of reservations. If you have middle class parents and this Patel chap's parents must be middle class and large numbers of people, when you've got something like 90% reservation, no matter for whom, and your kids have to compete for 10%, that's a real problem. And I think the answer to this is not to have them join the reservation, because then everything will be a reservation, that is a foolish thing to do. I think that since admissions are the first step in getting educated and having some chance at a job. That's a separate matter that you have reservations in jobs as well. But certainly on education, many people here, I find, it's because of the new wealth and so on, so many people here whose children are actually, I didn't even know there was an America, they are coming here. They are escaping but the middle class cannot escape, they can't afford it. So what we need to do, I don't know if this is feasible, but I want to talk to the Prime Minister because this is a big issue, maybe we can have massive expansion of colleges because traditionally we have always wanted to control expansion, worried about standards and so on. Ultimately the market will determine the standard. If you are producing garbage, you are never going to get very far.
NDTV: You are saying increase the number of seats, general seats, unreserved seats in educational institutions?
Prof Bhagwati: Yes more colleges, because that would be a better way to do it. I think we should also, this is more difficult, because like here, they don't have quotas, but you can get a handicap, like you can get 30% more marks than what you actually have, they scale it up and then you've got to compete. I think we should start talking about that. I don't think it can be done, it's going to take a long time because the system is so fed on reservations.
NDTV: Do you believe there should be a review of the quota policy?
Prof Bhagwati: Absolutely, because you want to help the people who are underrepresented, people who are underprivileged. But the question is how do we do that? And I think this is where this young man seems to have caught the general discontent.
NDTV: But you believe the Mandal politics have taken India in a direction where...
Prof Bhagwati: It's a disaster.
NDTV: But not the reservations for the scheduled castes and scheduled tribes. You draw a distinction?
Prof Bhagwati: For that also, I think we need to give them massive handicaps, so that they can compete, but not give them huge reservations. Some reservation yes and also some symbolic action.
Following is the transcript of an excerpt from Mr Bhagwati's interview:
NDTV: We are seeing something unprecedented happen in Gujarat and that fight has spilt over here in New York, which is the Patel agitation. You've got this young man who seems to have emerged from nowhere called Hardik Patel, He's basically questioning the entire reservations policy. I used to joke with you that the Modi dilemma is, is he going to be Bhagwati of Bhagwat but you now have even Mohan Bhagwat saying we need to review the reservation policy. You have the Patels threatening to agitate here, so it's going to Patel rap, Patel versus Patel and Modi visits. What do you make of this entire debate around the reservation policy?
Prof Bhagwati: I think you are calling him Hardik Patel but you might as well call him heartache Patel, at least for the Prime Minister. I think the real problem is that we have not really thought through or rethought the whole Mandal Commission approach of reservations. If you have middle class parents and this Patel chap's parents must be middle class and large numbers of people, when you've got something like 90% reservation, no matter for whom, and your kids have to compete for 10%, that's a real problem. And I think the answer to this is not to have them join the reservation, because then everything will be a reservation, that is a foolish thing to do. I think that since admissions are the first step in getting educated and having some chance at a job. That's a separate matter that you have reservations in jobs as well. But certainly on education, many people here, I find, it's because of the new wealth and so on, so many people here whose children are actually, I didn't even know there was an America, they are coming here. They are escaping but the middle class cannot escape, they can't afford it. So what we need to do, I don't know if this is feasible, but I want to talk to the Prime Minister because this is a big issue, maybe we can have massive expansion of colleges because traditionally we have always wanted to control expansion, worried about standards and so on. Ultimately the market will determine the standard. If you are producing garbage, you are never going to get very far.
NDTV: You are saying increase the number of seats, general seats, unreserved seats in educational institutions?
Prof Bhagwati: Yes more colleges, because that would be a better way to do it. I think we should also, this is more difficult, because like here, they don't have quotas, but you can get a handicap, like you can get 30% more marks than what you actually have, they scale it up and then you've got to compete. I think we should start talking about that. I don't think it can be done, it's going to take a long time because the system is so fed on reservations.
NDTV: Do you believe there should be a review of the quota policy?
Prof Bhagwati: Absolutely, because you want to help the people who are underrepresented, people who are underprivileged. But the question is how do we do that? And I think this is where this young man seems to have caught the general discontent.
NDTV: But you believe the Mandal politics have taken India in a direction where...
Prof Bhagwati: It's a disaster.
NDTV: But not the reservations for the scheduled castes and scheduled tribes. You draw a distinction?
Prof Bhagwati: For that also, I think we need to give them massive handicaps, so that they can compete, but not give them huge reservations. Some reservation yes and also some symbolic action.
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