On The NDTV Dialogues, we focus on liberal values in academic institutions and on an institution, which is counted amongst the best in the country, St Stephen's College, at Delhi University.
Following is the transcript of the show:
NDTV: Hello and welcome to The NDTV Dialogues, a conversation of ideas. Today we focus on liberal values in academic institutions specifically on this show and on an institution, which is counted amongst the best in the country, St Stephen's College, at Delhi University. We look at the future of this college and in general are universities, many would ask well why should non-Stephanians care about what's happening in this college? I think perhaps this is a larger debate, which reflects some of the fundamental fault lines on debates on television and on the online world. Joining me today a panel of eminent Stephanians; with me is Mani Shankar Aiyar, also Swapan Dasgupta, Deepak Mukharji, and Kalikesh Singh Deo; I am also joined by Nivedith Alva and Dr Ram Guha, thank you all very much for coming in. Like all good Stephanians and good Indians I'm sure none of you will agree with each other but that's what makes a good dialogue.
Mani Shankar Aiyar: I am not in the least worried. St Stephens is not a liberal place because somebody decreed it to be so. It just so happens that since some of the most outstanding school leavers in the country go to St Stephens, they tend naturally to be in the direction of liberal forms of thought. And I think 90 per cent of the influence on students at St Stephens comes from fellow students, particularly those who are a year or perhaps two years senior to you, who constitute the role models or the people who are in a position to help your mind to grow. I think teachers constitute about 4 or 5 percent of that influence. And I think good teachers constitute perhaps another 4 percent, which means that the Principal barely counts. I think after the Rev Allnutt who started the college, and then Mukarji and Rudra who really made a huge impact, since then the Principals have been virtually irrelevant, certainly none of the Principals that I can think of from Douglas Raja Ram downwards, that's covering 50 years, has had a particular influence on the College. The College is a great institution inspite of the Principal and therefore since the current controversy seems to be around the Principal. I think it's a hugely irrelevant discussion, so long as the boys there don't go off joining the BJP like occasional members from St Stephen's do, the liberal traditions of the College will certainly be under no threat.
Swapan Dasgupta: Well, whether there is a single idea of St. Stephens as we tend to make, an idea of India, an idea of Mani Shankar Aiyar, that's another thing altogether, that's a separate dialogue altogether. The point, which Mani was making is that St. Stephens had an open environment. He mistakenly calls it a liberal environment because it fits into some of its political proclivities. But in various political proclivities, and the most important thing is that at every point in St Stephens you were challenged. And it was peer group pressure, which either made you or devastated you. I know of various people who are completely devastated after their three years of experience in St Stephens and hated the place. But others came out loving it because I think it sharpened them. And being a liberal arts institution, primarily concerned with not what is in the curriculum, in fact curriculum mattered very, very little to them.
Swapan Dasgupta: So there was that entire atmosphere. And that atmosphere had been reproducing itself over the years, over the decades. Whether there has been a sharp break in it I am not terribly sure. My son went to St. Stephens and he graduated a few years ago and from what I could gauge from him is that I think, by and large, that tradition remains intact, although like many people who are fresh in college, they often complain about sort of draconian regulations etc. I would tend to say yes, probably in the earlier days there were less regulations than there are now, but that's a matter of detail. I think St Stephens College is a rarity in India. It's a cherished rarity. I hope it remains that way. It's not going to be reproduced and you are not going to find many more of them recreated in other parts, partly because those values, which really define St Stephens and made St Stephens what it is, are really diminishing in importance in the rest of the country. Now whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is something we can debate. But the reality is, you were always a small minisculity, now you are a really small minisculity, I think that's what we can say.
Deepak Mukarji: Well let me explain this, I think Swapan mentioned this very correctly that in the days gone by, when we came out of school and we came to college, there was this sudden liberation, a sense of freedom that you have when you came into college, because when you came from schools like I did, from St Columbas or like other people who came from Doon School, these were very hard disciplinarian societies, where six of the best were not unheard of on a cold Monday morning if you hadn't done your homework. And after that you came to St Stephens College where, if you hadn't submitted your tutorial, you weren't caned, but you were certainly made to feel a bit of a worm if you hadn't done it. Not by the teacher, who really couldn't care whether you came for the tutorial or not, because if you didn't have attendance for the tutorials, you weren't going up for the exams, but it was your peer group that made you feel a bit silly, that they had stepped ahead, you were left behind. So its all this concept of liberal thinking as Mani said, we were challenging one another as we went along. Today's world has become un-accepting of any kind of discipline that is required. The whole world has changed. St Stephens has tried to retain some norms of discipline, character building, of how do we take people forward together as a community and as a society. Pretty much what any government tries to do is to create some sort of uniformity in thinking or at least cohesion of thought, and that is where the rebellion part comes in. As you say there is this idea of St Stephens that people have, which is ephemeral, it rests in their heads. It all has to do with 'nimbu panis' and the cigarettes and the samosas that one had at the cafe or at the dhaba. It doesn't exist any longer. Cigarettes are not allowed in the university, drinking is not allowed, it never was allowed in the university, if you did it you were breaking the rules. Today there are higher levels of vigilance, because of security reasons you need to have enhanced security. But the point is there are higher levels of vigilance around, therefore you are caught far easier than you were possibly 30-40 years ago, when I was in college.
Kalikesh Singh Deo: Well circumstances are changing. I think when I entered College in the early '90s we found there was increase in the reservation at that point of time. There was a change in character of the institution itself. But by and large the essence of St Stephens, the concept of being able to express yourself very freely, whether its through drama, whether its through debates or even a discussion around the dhaba, around the halls of the College, existed, I think to me, what's worrying me is that if that character in the institution changes, then that'll be a problem. I think in today's day and age we want our kids to challenge, whether be it governmental policies, be it social paradigms which exist, I think we want our kids to be able to express themselves freely and if that changes that's a problem. In terms of being elitist, I think that's more of a tag being given by people who either didn't get into college or wanted to get in and couldn't manage to for some reason. I think, the fact is that people from the alumni from Stephens have done very well, in any field, there is Swapan, there is Mani, there are others who have done very, very well and achievements and performance actually define educational institutions. That's happened with St Stephens, its probably happened with other institutions as well.
Nivedith Alva: First of all I would like to say Stephens, like everyone who has spoken before me has said, Stephens was never just about the education. It was never just about, you know once you got in, there were a hundred different things to do which were always more important than everything else you did, until it came to exam time in March and April, from the Shakespeare Society to the Debating Society to the History Society to the Planning Forum, there were lots of different fora for people to be able to express themselves, do stuff they liked and build peer group relationships which last them throughout their lives. Today, yes freedom of expression and one of these debates, which is raging about, stuff like that, is definitely important. But where I differ is, I am sure that College still, you still have spice things which people write overnight and put out all over College, where they have a freedom of expression, cooler talk still comes out. But I differ where I believe that if a student has been given an interview by the Principal and the Principal wants to see the interview, I don't think the student or whatever that they are printing out can be done without the Principal's permission. Because at the end of the day, any institution you study in, there is a Principal, right and if he has asked for something, to do something against his explicit wishes or his explicit instructions is going out of your way to do something which you've been asked not to do. So I don't think that in any way is an infringement of your expression or of your rights as a student in college. On the other issue, which you have talked about with regard to the hiring of teachers, from what I've understood, because I did some research yesterday, is that there is a 9 person committee which is put together for all hiring, out of which the Principal is only one person. So yes I think unneeded colour is being given to the running of an institution. And what's more surprising is that a lot of the articles, which have been written on this, badgering College, coming up with all these things about what all is wrong, are people who have not even studied in college. So, where they are getting this information from, why they are writing this? And definitely from the tonality of it, I am not trying to be snooty or over smart, but it definitely sounds like a lot of people didn't get into College and the last time they stepped in was when they were rejected at the interview.
NDTV: Oh no, Nivedith, I am not entirely going to agree with that because I think perhaps what Kalikesh and you said will reinforce the whole snob Stephanian stereotype. So let me stay out of that. I don't think that's entirely true necessarily, so I don't agree with that. But let me get in Ram Guha, Sir if you can come in, I said in the beginning of this programme its not just about St Stephens College perhaps, and that may seem as a very micro way of looking at it, its really about the larger issue of the future of academic institutions, liberal values, how do you liberate a college from being looked at in the religious ethos its in and perhaps what it teaches its students? What would your perspective be on this dialogue?
Ram Guha: Well I think liberalism is closely tied to pluralism. And I'm going to attack the elephant in the room, which Nivedith wants to leave ignored, the Christianisation of the College. And this well precedes the present Principal, its been going on since the last 25 years. The St Stephens in which Mani and Swapan and I studied had an all India catchment. In the 1990's there was a Supreme Court judgement, which said minority or minority-aided institutions could go up to 50 per cent in the allocation of seats, could not, should. Unfortunately the administration under Principal Wilson went against the advice of the best academic minds in Delhi University and said, now if your catchment is all India, and suddenly you find that 2 per cent of the population which is what Christians are, are going to give you 50 per cent of the students and in the 50 per cent or 80 per cent of the faculty, the character of the institution is going to change and it has changed, that's the first thing. The second thing is related but not directly connected. For several reasons of which Christianisation is one, St Stephens no longer enjoys the preeminence it did in the past. Many of the best students who want to do humanities don't go to St Stephens they go to Lady Shri Ram, which has a much better Department of Politics and English. They go to Ramjas, which has a much better Department of History; they go to Shri Ram College of Commerce, which has a much better Department of Economics. In fact the only academic department in St Stephens, which is still recognised as top class is Philosophy. Likewise people go to law schools. In my view closely interacting with students from the law school and from St Stephens 20 or 30 years ago, the best students across India wanting to study humanities would go to St. Stephens, now they go to the National Law School in Bangalore. So for a variety of reasons of which Christianisation is one, not the whole story, the intellectual preeminence of St Stephens, whether reflected in its students or in its faculty, is being challenged by various directions and its something, which the College, its Board, its alumni, should introspect about. Institutions rise but also decay and as comforting to think that, every critic of St Stephens is a person who did not get into St Stephens, but let me tell Kalikesh and Nivedith, I spent 5 years in St Stephens and I am appalled by the decline in St Stephens.
NDTV: And the larger message, as I said, because its really also about what happens when you see an institution in decline, is it just about the college Principal, is it just about the governing body or is there a larger impact you see? And really perhaps also where do we look at creating new institutes of excellence rather than looking at creating more St. Stephens or more SRCCs or more say Xavier's Colleges? We just watch this decline happen in front of us.
Ram Guha: Yes, I think Sonia, the decline of St Stephens is a cause of worry to its alumni, its current students and the parents, but its not a cause of worry to India as a whole, because as I said, the National Law School, I mean the finest social scientists in India today in their 20's and 30's come from the National Law Schools, they don't come from St. Stephens, uou know the days of Shahid Amin, the great historian, the great economist Deepak Nath, those are gone. The best historians, economists and sociologists are coming from the National Law Schools, you have to recognize this; Arjun Patels are coming from the IITs or they are coming from smaller towns, sometimes with a Hindi language or a Kannada language background, which St Stephens mocks. So I think nostalgia for the past is misplaced, I think complacency is misplaced, a cold hard look at St Stephens is required if it is even to recover a reasonable quality. As far as India is concerned, other institutions will step in. Now the new universities like Ashoka, which are completely modern, which are completely contemporary, 21st century, not believing at disciplinary ethos of a 19th century British public school, so I don't mourn for India because other institutions will vacate the place that St Stephens once filled. But if St Stephens is concerned about its declining brand quality, it should not be complacent in the least.
NDTV: Last question Ram Guha because I know you are going, but last question. I used the word elite, does it perhaps also, we have seen a much larger democratisation of all our institutions, a much larger, when you said catchment area, you've seen this also with the Prime Minister, the pride in Hindi. In St Stephens College perhaps a Hindi speaking student would have been looked down upon or mocked as you pointed out. But in that sense, when you say its an idea that belongs to the past, perhaps the word elite which is now seen as a word of snobbery, is also an idea that belongs to the past or in some sense intellectual is also seen as not a great complement.
Ram Guha: No I think quality and elitism are two different things. Institutions should promote quality not elitism. St Stephens in the past produced quality perhaps as well as also elitism. You know the best students were middle class. I went to a very elite school, the Doon School, but my fellow Doscos who came in their Mercedes Benz, in chauffeur driven cars, were treated with a scorn because they did not contribute much to the College. So quality and elitism are two different things. And in St Stephens however there is this complacency. I don't want to remind my dear friend Mani about remarks he made about a fellow Congressman who went to Hansraj College you know, but that was St Stephens at its worst. St Stephens at its best is Mani's brave standing up for pluralism and secularism in public life despite all the threats he and his family has received. But elitism about English language or a certain, you know an economics honours degree is better than doing BA pass. I will give you an example. This huge snobbery about Economics Honours degrees in college, now let me tell you that one of the four or five most successful Stephanians in India today is someone who did BA pass and spoke Hindi, and that's Piyush Pandey, who did Narendra Modi's election campaign, and he would be mocked in St Stephens, because a he spoke Hindi, and b) he did BA pass. So I think elitism and quality are two different things and they need to be carefully distinguished.
NDTV: Ram Guha thanks very much for being part of the show, thank you. And Mani Shankar Aiyar, are you the quintessential Stephanian snob because of course your 'chaiwala' comment you made, was also, some put it down to, this is the Stephanian snobbery at play?
Mani Shankar Aiyar: I don't see myself as a snob, you might; Ram Guha might. I see myself as a chap who is able to mock and to laugh at myself. I mean surely the great thing about being in St Stephens is not academic achievement, it's never been.
NDTV: Laughing at yourself and laughing at others there is a difference.
Mani Shankar Aiyar: Academic achievement is completely incidental. What is relevant is in terms of character and outlook, what Swapan called an open society. It's the ability to be able to live in an open society where people say things about you and you respond.
NDTV: No but when you said laugh at yourself
Mani Shankar Aiyar: And that was the origin, he says fellow Congressman, this guy wrote a vicious letter about me, nobody had ever criticised him for it, and I, instead of falling to his standards and writing him a vicious reply, I cracked a joke. Now if you just take the joke out of context then of course you sort of portray the man as being what he is. I never called Modi a 'chaiwala', he called himself a 'chaiwala', I never used the word and yet every time I'm asked, they say what about your 'chaiwala' comment, I never made a 'chaiwala' comment. So therefore there is a tendency on the part of StephanianS who become anchors to become a little less Stephanian.
NDTV: Or little more depending on how you put it. But on the comment you made, which I think was viewed by many in your party was that he could serve chai here at the Congress convention or whatever
Mani Shankar Aiyar: No, in what context? Please tell me the rest of my sentence. You don't remember.
NDTV: No of course I don't
Mani Shankar Aiyar: Now see I unfortunately made all my preliminary remarks before I came to this and in any case I know of no other Stephanian who said anything like this. So how does my defect reflect upon the College?
Swapan Dasgupta: I think the issue of St Stephens mercifully is bigger than Mani Shankar Aiyar and I was struck by one thing, you know I cannot comment with a great deal of certitude like Ram does about falling standards, but I do certainly find it very odd that a student magazine would actually interview the Principal. It would be something completely ridiculous in our days.
Mani Shankar Aiyar: I agree with that
Swapan Dasgupta: I mean why would you want to interview the Principal for heavens sake? And it suggests a certain cravenness, which went all right, but those are not the values. And talking about Christianisation, I think that's an important point. I think St Stephens I always agreed, was always a Christian institution. But there was a difference between a Christian education and education for Christians, I think its a very, very crucial difference. I think where things have gone a little off track is perhaps because of this over-weight given to reservations, which has resulted in the other facet, which is the Christian education, which I think all of us have benefited from, because you are talking about that in its most enlightened sense of the term and you are talking about it not in an evangelical way, you are talking about it not even in a very theological way, you are talking about it in terms of a spirit, maybe an enlightenment concept, it is certainly western.
NDTV: But the aspect of quality, well academics may not be the only thing about St Stephens College if it has to retain the reputation, but in fact Rev Thampu has made the point, in some list he has sent off, how the College has changed, that it is finally back in the top 5, but the point Ram Guha was making that as a College now its no longer relevant or its not the first choice at all
Deepak Mukarji: May I make a statement here? I am afraid with all due respect Ram Guha, he is a senior of mine, he made a couple of very provocative statements and disappeared from this channel. Unfortunately there was no way for him to describe what he meant by irrelevant. I haven't understood what he meant by irrelevant, irrelevant to whom, to what and for what length of time or what purpose? Frankly to this day, St Stephens still attracts the largest number of applications and we have a problem with the cut offs. When we do establish the cut offs we have 300 odd seats, for which we have 4000 people sitting for the interview. Now clearly, I don't see that as a diminishing of relevance. I also don't see the court cases being filed against College as a diminishing of relevance. If it was that irrelevant or was becoming irrelevant people wouldn't continuously keep filing cases against the College. Let me explain to you in a quick example, there was a Christian student a few years ago who filed a case against College saying that under the reservation category I fall within the grace marks that are allowed. However the reality is that between the general category and the Christian students, and this is a study that's been done, the difference is probably less than 4 per cent, while the grace marks maybe allocated, maybe 15 per cent, the reality is there is only 4 per cent. So somebody who comes into the 12 per cent mark just doesn't make the cut, because there are pretty smart Christian students coming from Kerala, from Orissa, from all around the country, being part of this College. So we still retain that broad character of College. And yes, there are more Christian students which, as Swapan says, is different to the time he was there, but we still get people from all around the country
NDTV: Kalikesh do you agree?
Kalikesh Singh Deo: Partially, there has been a change. As I said before, I think the Stephens that Swapan, Mani and maybe even Deepak went to, is now a different institution. In terms of relevance other institutions have come up, they are doing very well. Maybe Stephens and other colleges, which had the place of prominence, they haven't adapted themselves enough, that's a fact of the matter. That's why its going to be constantly evolving, that's nothing to beat yourself about. I think to me, what strikes at the very heart of this entire discussion is this whole interview issue with the Principal and the court cases that have been happening. And in my time I couldn't think of anybody going to court. We would talk to the Principal. We would talk to the administration and come to the solution. The fact that something has to go to the court now, for me that is a problem. One, that you cannot solve your problem within the confines of your four walls. Well, whether you choose not to or whether the solution doesn't come out which is amicable to all parties, I think there is hardening of stance sometimes, that's a problem for me and that has to be defined, that you cannot really have an open-air discussion that you could at one point of time. In just a terms of character the change that's been happening, I think society as a whole is also changed. There has been emphasis in the recent years on religion, more of an emphasis on religion and society, politically and social, colleges change along with that, but the spirit of the College, institution like St Stephen cannot fall prey to that and that's the only thing I think about.
NDTV: Do you, the whole tag of Stephanian snobbery, what you said, what Mr Aiyar has been accused of saying and other aspects of it, in that sense do you think its true that now if you go to a constituency nobody cares if you are a Stephanian and in fact your opponent may say look it shows what an elitist he is?
Kalikesh Singh Deo: Look I think Ram misunderstood what I said. I cracked a joke. What Mani and Swapan were talking about, about anybody who gives the tag of elitism to St Stephens is somebody who has a grudge. The fact is that its a reflective in a lighter way and not really what one feels. St Stephens has differentiated itself from Delhi University in many ways. It doesn't join the political race in Delhi University. It has a number of societies, which are very active, which is a very good thing for a child's development and to me that's a positive thing, which is not followed by most colleges. And I would hope that other colleges pick up the positives and become like that, rather than fall prey and criticise St Stephen.
Swapan Dasgupta: There are two types of elitism. Of course there is the intellectual elitism, which sometimes borders on arrogance, which I think is very prevalent in St Stephens, but there is a social elitism. Now the question is that how far was that social elitism there? In our days Principal Rajpal never spoke about people in residence, gentleman in residence was always the appropriate term and you modeled yourself as being the all rounder, as being a man who could carry out scintillating, if somewhat supercilious conversations. You were glib and that glibness, your ability to dine in the dinning room with a knife and fork, all that some how, they were not consciously imbibed, but somehow percolated into the whole atmosphere. From St. Stephens when people went out I think that a little sense of aloofness always lingered, particularly within India and therefore regardless whether the elitism issue was conscious or not, indirectly it did play a role. Whether it's a completely useless attribute or not, I'll not comment because I think it sometimes, I am sure Mani would have been well served by that grounding in St Stephens, not to mention his wilder days in Cambridge as a communist in the foreign service.
NDTV: How did you manage to become a rightwing Stephanian because Mani Shankar Aiyar clearly considers you an aberration? Perhaps that's the reality of today which Mr Aiyar hasn't woken up to
Swapan Dasgupta: The problem with Mani Shankar Aiyar is that he, later in his life, someone thrust a copy of Marx and it was never the same for him again, and ever since that he genuflects before different deities, but the redness has never gone away.
Mani Shankar Aiyar: It is an actual fact. I picked up my copy of Das Kapital in Connaught Place, now called Rajiv Chowk, from a Soviet. 5 rupees paid and that was 10 percent of my monthly pocket money, ii was a large sum of money. But the fact of the matter is that it was in St Stephens much more than in Cambridge subsequently, or in the foreign service or Parliament, that one's mind was provoked or it may have been provoked in the wrong direction or I might have gone in the wrong direction. But this capacity of this peer group of students to provoke you to make up on your mind in which way to go and to even give you an option of being a Trotskyite at college and then a right wing BJP wala in subsequent life, all this is Stephanian. And I don't think any one Principal, whatever the rule he lays down, is capable of changing that. What I do want to say as a founder editor of Cooler Talk is that it never occurred to us as Swapan said, to go and interview whoever was the Principal. I can't even remember quite who it was but what the administration did was they named Mr Shanklin as the general in charge and he never interfered, he absolutely never interfered and all our articles, we thought it would last for 21 months, all our articles were either directed against college staff or they were directed against fellow colleges and it lasted for more than 20 years. Now if you bring in a system where not only is the Principal interviewed, but the Principal gives an interview, then he wants to correct his own interview and then he suspends the fellow not listening to it, I think Principals have changed, but principles spelt with an 'e', Stephanian principles remain the same.
NDTV: I want to get Nivedith, who has been listening very patiently, because the Philosophy Department gives the student an award which is taken away from him, but Nivedith final round of The Dialogue tonight, you've heard all the various perspectives, come in with your perspective of what perhaps you think the final words of this should be, of a college which no one really cares about anymore, alumni who go to court, students who goes to court or a college which you think is essential today in Delhi university and perhaps also encourages diversity of thought which all panelist have talked about? Ironically the Principal in that interview said that St Stephens College cannot truly be itself without the sense of humour and then of course went ahead and stopped the magazine being published. So that thing is a joke right there, Nivedith final thoughts, go ahead.
Nivedith Alva: I just like to say first of all that I do not agree with a lot of the stuff that Ram said, simply because that yes, things have changed, yes there are many, many places where people can go and study, there are people deciding what they want to do of their career straight out of school, so they don't want to waste 3 years doing honours degree or going to DU. So that's a different thing. You can't say that people are going to National Law School, they are going to National Law School because they are going straight out of school, they do entrance tests, there's a lot of options available today which were not available 15 years ago or 20 years ago of the level that are available today. Having said that I think more or less everybody has said that Stephanians basically, it just happens when you go in, its not about the academics, its about the overall experience of the College. And what I believe also, more importantly, that some of the alumni who are constantly going, is the only thing, to quote is the only thing, which is being reported. There are lot of people who are helping College in many, many ways whether its infrastructure, or many, many positives that are never even talked about, that never gets reported. So I think beyond a point, because if you look at some of the fan pages, the Facebook pages and stuff like that, there are lot of people now, lot of alumni who are keeping quiet, silently for a long time and are now telling the other people saying, ki boss get a life, figure out what you want to do. But to spend all day on social media and trying to find fault with what is happening and going on and on about it beyond a point is not helpful to anyone, and the points you all are making are not relevant in any case.
NDTV: Nivedith thank so much. Final words Swapan, go ahead, we began the show with asking well why does anyone else care about St Stephens College and in a sense why have nostalgia for it?
Swapan Dasgupta: Frankly the people who care about St Stephens are people who are either in the College or people who were in College. I agree its very small, its an island, it contains people who remember it, remember it for values which probably are getting dated in today's society, but allow us to follow in nostalgia. I think it's a very nice form of nostalgia but therefore it leads to me to the conclusion that in many respects, perhaps I have the tangential agreement with Ram Guha, is that St. Stephens is like a club, but its a club which is drawing a very different sort of membership today than it was, but perhaps, but clubs do. There are clubs, which change with time and St Stephens is like that and it's best to view it in that context. Whether that has national importance, my answer to that is simple no, it does not have any larger national importance because St Stephens is only one and it's not a question of declining standards all over. Ram is quite right in saying people have other alternatives, people's priorities have changed, they are far more driven and motivated in life today, life is far more competitive than it was in the old days, when the main purpose was to turn you into gentlemen.
NDTV: What I was going to actually say in the second half of my question was, that St. Stephens is also relevant because of the alumni it produced, they were often the Secretaries of the Government of India, they were often senior politicians, or it was a powerful network, I think what's interesting. Also is with the change of times, change of the society, that network has shrunk completely of St Stephens College and is that a good thing? You talked about it being an island, is it a good thing perhaps now, that you have many islands or many more doors where India, or not necessarily the power corridors, are not dominated by the Stephanian anymore? That's the change.
Swapan Dasgupta: I think the governing elite is being redefined in India, to my mind that's a very positive development. It was certainly not a very healthy sign if one college was actually setting the tone. The fact that when we went to college at a time when it was setting the tone makes us somewhat of misfits in the present world. That's something that we have to live up to, we have to accept, but overall it does not matter, I think it's a very, very positive development that India is being democratised.
NDTV: Well of course the rivalry is that SRCC now dominates over St Stephens College.
Swapan Dasgupta: The values are very different, the values which SRCC, and I am not negating those values, they are far more charged up, this is like an MBA type of an ethos, their idea was not to produce the gentlemen. If they incidentally produce the gentlemen as they have, unlike Mani Shankar Aiyar, I have friends who went Shri Ram College and its a very good institution and you can't fault it, an institution which demands 100 per cent for its entrance can't be all that bad.
NDTV: You didn't answer what Mani Shankar Aiyar pointed out at the beginning of the programme. When he talked about St Stephens, he talked about liberal values that are increasingly out of place in the society of today, do you think that bit perhaps is true?
Swapan Dasgupta: No, no, its not liberal you see, how do you interpret, what is the meaning you have attached to liberal?
NDTV: Live and let live.
Swapan Dasgupta: If he was talking about, I call an open society, in no bands, a certain sense of humour, interplay etc that is it, yes. People had sense of certitudes of their own but they weren't intolerant of other people's certitudes, I think that really important. The moment you become intolerant and think you are the last word then there's a problem. And that's a truism, whether it's in St Stephens College or a wider society. So Mani is right but he believes that St Stephens College promoted liberalism. I don't believe St Stephens College ever thought of anything abstract as ideology or political thought, it was too profound for the engagements we have. These are post facto rationalisations.
Mani Shankar Aiyar: Clearly the college is deteriorating. I am 15 years senior to him, and we did interest ourselves in ideology then and we didn't indulge in political chameleonism of the kind that he has done, from being a Trotskyite to now a BJPite, but may I illustrate the point...
NDTV: Yes
Swapan Dasgupta: Worshiping of the altar of the family is I presume a natural progression from Marxism
Mani Shankar Aiyar: May I illustrate what I mean by the best values of St Stephens through a Stephanian called Rakesh Saxena, who was the most famous Naxalite Marxist of his time in St. Stephens. He then joined a bank and over night he bankrupted Thailand and so he had to flee from Thailand and he fetched up ultimately in Canada, where he was interviewed by the Globe and Mail, who asked him, this man who'd become a criminal in the financial world, they said, but were you a Marxist in college? And he replied I still am. They said but how do you mix it with this? He said ideology is one thing, making a life is a quite different thing. Now that's the St Stephens thing. You are able to take the worst example of St Stephens and even he has something to say.
NDTV: No, but as I said is a ban on a magazine in St Stephens, as in Congress has a beef ban in Mumbai, because its really about where its happening, you may have a beef ban in another state and nobody would even blink an eye, but that's the incongruity which I think is perhaps the heart of the problem, final thoughts Kalikesh?
Deepak Mukarji: Now I want to come in on this, there was no ban on the magazine, it was suspended till July everybody else talked about it as a ban, but the reality is that it was suspended till July
NDTV: Look, big difference
Deepak Mukarji: Yes there is a huge difference. When you ban something, you shut it down. When you suspend it, you just put it out of circulation for a while. But that apart, on the ground of taste maybe it should have been banned, but it was only suspended and that's the remarkable thing about St Stephens, that we call ourselves elitist, other people call us elitist, its not being any different to the rest of the world but we do have a sense of humour that does get drilled into you if you spend long enough in the College and have enough fun in that College. We are trying to build, the alumni is working, we've got a master plan now, which is going to make the faculty, the facilities of college much larger, broader, more inclusive, allow greater numbers to come into the College, because yes, we have to grow with the times. This college is over 133 years old and it needs to move with the times
Swapan Dasgupta: ... not by teaching courses on citizenship and stuff like that.
Deepak Mukarji: Well that's another outreach programme.
Swapan Dasgupta: To quote Mani Shankar you can't blame the College for everything.
Kalikesh Singh Deo: I think we are losing our sense of humour
NDTV: That's not just in College, that's across the board
Kalikesh Singh Deo: Ban the magazine, suspend the magazine, ban beef, who you want to have sex with, all of these issues are a problem to me personally. I think it bothers me when somebody tells me what you can eat, what you can do, it bothers me when somebody tells me that you can't write about something irrespective of the fact that you interviewed the Principal or not, I think there's something wrong with that and if that kind of system is allowed to prevail then I fear St Stephens will fast lose its relevance
Swapan Dasgupta: I think we can only agree that we should silence Mani Shankar Aiyar
NDTV: You should all have a chai pe charcha at the dhaba but till then thank you all very much for joining me, thank you.
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