'Keeping Kids as Domestic Help is Modern Day Slavery': Kailash Satyarthi on NDTV Townhall

Namaskar, Kailash ji and welcome to the programme. The first question I want to ask you is to explain to people how deep seated the practice of child labour is and I ask you this because there is confusion? The government only recognizes 4.3 million children to be involved in child labour. UNICEF places the figure at 28 million and NGOs place the figure even higher. What is the scale that we are talking about, for India, and for the world?

Kailash Satyarthi:  Well, one thing is clear, that India has the largest number of child labourers in the world and this is a stigma on our democracy and our society both. Whatever is the number, from the estimations of 4.3 million or 4.4 million to 20 million or 50 million, because according to NGOs it is 50 million or even more, but whatever is the number, every single child matters. Every single minute matters. We fail our children again and again for so many years, so I know that this figure of government is not based on household surveys or scientific data collection. It is based on some sample survey, so definitely the number is much more higher than what we....

NDTV: But we do know that India has the highest number of children working in labour anywhere in the world

Kailash Satyarthi: Absolutely, absolutely

NDTV: ...and that is such a shame

Kailash Satyarthi: Absolutely

NDTV: Kailash ji, there is a very moving story that you sometimes tell, about how you as a child first decided that your life was going to be devoted to this. And you spoke of how when you went to school, there was a cobbler's child outside who was polishing shoes. Tell our young people here about it, what happened.

Kailash Satyarthi: Yes, it was sowing the first seed, or the first spark in my life, then I encountered with a cobbler boy outside my school. It was my very first day of schooling, so when I was entering, I was struck for a while, that why this child is looking at us, he wanted to get some job of shoe shining or something, but we all were wearing new shoes and new uniforms, new aspirations and new dreams. So when I entered my school the first question I asked my teacher was Sir, why this boy is sitting outside, and why not with us in our classroom? Then he said, it's quite common, my Headmaster said the same thing, and my parents and family members tried to convince me that it's not uncommon....

NDTV: That it was normal.

Kailash Satyarthi: Yes, that it was normal for them, for everyone. But I could not be satisfied, I asked to the father of this boy, who was also accompanying him, when I was coming back from the school, I gathered all my courage at the age of 5, 5 and a half years old, and I asked that Babu ji, aap apne bacche ko school kyu nahi bhejte? (Sir, why don't you send your child to school?) And he replied, no don't call me Babuji, aap bade log hain, so he said that I never thought about it, I started since my childhood, so did my father and so is my son. Then the second thing he said was his answer, but it was a question for the whole of my life. He said that you don't know, that we are born to work. I started thinking, that why some children are born to work, why they are born to work at the cost of their freedom, their education, their health and their dreams and that is unacceptable. And I kept on fighting and I'm still fighting.

NDTV:  And there are those of us who have become, main issme sabhi ko shaamil karti hun, apne aap ko bhi, we get numb, we pass children on the street, ragpickers, traffic light pe dikhte hain bacche, dhabas mein dikhte hain. Have we become numb? You haven't obviously, lekin jab aap social attitudes dekhte hain, when you see social attitudes of people; people are not shocked by this anymore, why is that? How have we become so unfeeling?

Kailash Satyarthi: Actually it's a mixed situation. I won't call that everybody is numb, or silent. There are people, there are young people like them, woh bhi sochte hain ki bhai, kuch bura ho raha hain, but pata nahi aap logo ko ki kare kya, bura ho raha hain toh kare kya. Abhi tak bal majdoori ka mudda yeh maan ke chale gaya ki gareeb bacche hain, kaam kar rahe hain. Lekin main pichle 35 saal se yeh keh raha hun, ki baal majdoori ke wajah se majdoori hain. Gareebi ke wajah se baal-majdoori hain. Yeh aadha sach hain. Toh humko kuch na kuch karna chahiye, dekhte hain ki kisi bacche ke upar zurm ho raha hain.So there are possibilities that you can call police, you can call the child help line, you can raise this voice through your social media, most of you are connected with one or the other social media, toh ussme react kar sakte hain aap log, ki hum apna chup na rahe, kyunki now we live in a world where we must feel that there is no problem in the world, which is an isolated problem. We are living in an interconnected world. If something is going wrong with a group of children, or even with one child, that child could turn into a suicide bomber tomorrow, if we are not going to give him a purpose of life, we are not going to give him care and protection...

NDTV: So you are actually seeing linkages between children in bonded labour and juvenile crime, or later adult crime?

Kailash Satyarthi: Sab cheez mili hui hain,first of all I have been raising or advocating a triangular relationship between child labour, poverty, and illiteracy. And crimes and other things also come in between. Intolerance, violence....

NDTV: Many perfectly educated people are also suicide bombers.

Kailash Satyarthi: Yes, that is true, but we are not able to give them a sense of moral responsibility towards society, as well as a sense of global citizenship. We have brainwashed their mind or some people have brainwashed their mind in such a narrow perspective that they see that yeh hi hamari zindagi hain. Aur isse karne se hame swarg mil jaega, wagera wagera. So it is a collective responsibility that through our education system, in our societies, in our temples, in our mosques, in our playgrounds, everywhere we should try to inculcate the value of global citizenship in our young people because no, I would repeat, no demographic segment of age can match with the idealism of the young people like you. But that idealism has to be tapped into some purpose

NDTV:  All right, let's take the first question. Kanika, let's get the mike to Kanika please

Kanika: Good evening Sir, in India we have treasured our cultural heritage and traditional industries in which children, right from their childhood learn skills from their parents, in fact the recent amendment to child rights we see that they are allowed to work in family based enterprises. How do we define family based here? And do you think it will provide a loophole in the law?

NDTV:  And a lot of people have been very disturbed by the proposed Cabinet amendments, they feel it legitimises child labor, by allowing these family run enterprises, even though it's after school hours, we know that caveat exists, lekin fir bhi Kailash ji, are you in agreement with these changes?

Kailash Satyarthi: No, no. Let me answer to her first. I personally rescued not hundreds, but thousands of bonded and trafficked children from the industries that are supposed to be or which are known as so called home based industries or heritage cultural, etc etc, like carpet industry, carpets se maine bohut baccho koi chodaiya hain, lekin I tell you that thousands, not even hundreds, only a few were found to be working along with their families as the family workers or family labourers or learning some sort of carpet weaving, some artisanship. Most of the children were trafficked, most of the children were held in bondage, and exploited like anything, under the garb of so called family learning, so that is the reality. So if an artisan is able to find a better market and good earning then he will never send his children to work, to learn the same. He will send the child to school, and even a so called public school, meaning an English school, so he will send the children to English medium schools, so the child can become something more than what he is doing. Yeh toh bohut hi bada myth hain hamare samaj mein ki woh artisan ka beta artisan ban raha hain. Kyunki market ke saath jinka link hain, woh to exporters hain, woh to middlemen hain, woh to doosre kisam ke log hain, woh bechara artisan nahi hain, toh isiliye hum isse dhak ke nahi rakh sakte. As far as you're concerned....

NDTV: The amendment, the proposed amendment.  

Kailash Satyarthi: Yes, the proposed amendment. I think I would underline one thing that this proposed amendment is much more progressive than the existing law.

NDTV: How?

Kailash Satyarthi:K : We have been demanding and that has been largely accepted that all forms of child labour must be prohibited until the age of 14. There was no mention of the children working between 15 and 18. Now the amendment proposes the total ban on child labour in hazardous occupations up to the age of 18, that's the second important thing. The third thing is that the law has become much more stringent than before in terms of the fines and punishment so that's a good thing. And that is also clear, that money that is recovered would go for the rehabilitation of those children, directly, some 50,000 rupees. So these are the positive aspects, but the gray areas are still there. So we have been or I have been demanding 3 major things. First of all I would say that we have to welcome the positive aspect of it but the gray area must be addressed now. You are not going to amend or make new laws again and again, every year you're not going to make the law. I recall those days, in 1980, 1981 when I started my fight against child labour, India did not have any domestic law, so this law of 1986 came after 4 or 5 years of struggle by many civil society organizations, including me, and it was a poor and weak law. Now we don't want a poor and weak law. So what I'm demanding is one, there should be clear definition of child labour, which is not defined in the existing law, or the amendment, so child labour must be defined, so employer employee relationship directly or indirectly has to clarified there.  The second thing is the family there should not be any ambiguity about family, gray area about family. I am suggesting that if the children are learning anything or helping parents, or legal guardians in absence of parents, then if they are learning something in their extra hours, there must not be any compromise about 3 things, one is education, full time education in schools, second thing is health, no compromise on health, and third thing in their leisure time for development. And even if they have some free time in their vacations or so on they can learn with their parents, not work or employed under the garb of work or learning with other relatives, because relatives are normally fake.

NDTV: But do you not think it is dangerous to even allow, some would say there should be an absolute ban, because what parents will say is haan haan padhai toh kar li and make them work double shift almost, so the child goes to school, and the rest of the day is spent supporting their parents.

Kailash Satyarthi: Issme do cheeze aur hain, so besides the definition of family the third thing is hazardous child labour. So we cannot make any compromise, we cannot go back to the list that has already been identified as the hazardous occupations list. 18 occupations, aur painsath processes ko hazardous occupation present law mein maana gaya hain. If the new amendment goes back and tries to squeeze it to a smaller list, then you will allow a number of activities, for instance carpet weaving and others to come back, so there cannot be any compromise on this thing.

NDTV: So this needs more work. Kanika Kumar, lets get the mike to Kanika Kumar.

Kanika Kumar: Sir, Cabinet has given clearance for kids to work in entertainment industry, how is that not child labour? And we know that media and entertainment industry make people work harder, and who's going to vouch for their care?

NDTV: Child artists

Kailash Satyarthi: Child artists, actually it's also unfortunate that the so called child artist, they are also forced to work by sometimes their parents and sometimes the entertainment industry or channels or something, reality shows. I think there cannot be any compromise on education first of all, full time education and again their willingness, in their free time, if it is imposed on them to become an artist, sometimes the parents kehte hain ki hamare bacche ne first laana hain gaane mein, naachne mein, aur kayi baar bacche behosh hokar gir jaate hain, seekhte seekhte, yeh maamle bhi saamne aaye hain...

NDTV: But isn't this another gray area, Kailash ji in the amendments?

Kailash Satyarthi: No I would say that it's a little bit unclear but if the children are learning some sort of art, or dance....

NDTV: But these reality shows, or child artists in movies, jaha pe school miss karna padta hain

Kailash Satyarthi: School agar miss hota hain, toh yeh galat hain, illegal. Because it is against the right to education and will be against the child labour law also, agar zabardasti kisi prakar ki hoti hain, lekin there is a role of state agencies and the strict agencies, the State Commission on the Protection of Rights of the Children is one agency which has to deal, which is already dealing. In fact in Maharashtra, the Maharshtra State Commission has taken it up seriously, even in the existing situations or existing law....

NDTV: So is this another of the proposed amendments that you think is not specified enough? When you say child artists except for, in circuses, provided they are also attending school, but how is it possible to be in a movie and also attend school?

Kailash Satyarthi: No if they not attending their schools, and working in a movie or so called entertaining activities, it is illegal, I don't accept it. Schooling, health and freedom are three components which are non negotiable.

NDTV: Okay, Divya, where is Divya? Let's get Divya a mike please.

Divya: Sir what are your views of the government imposing fines on the parents of kids engaged in child labour, when they do so because of extreme poverty? In the recent amendment to the Child Labour Act, the government levies a fine of Rs 10,000 on parents, who are repeat offenders. Wouldn't this just end up making the poor poorer?
Isn't it punishing them?

Kailash Satyarthi: Very, very good question. Actually, one thing must be made clear, that children must be given full protection and care under various other laws including the Juvenile Justice Act. Children must be ensured stipend and other incentives in schools if they are poor. If you're talking about the extreme poor or the marginalized children, they are entitled to various benefits under various government schemes. Perhaps neither the parents know nor others or sometimes the government officials are sometimes pathetic about it. So those facilities and those benefits must be ascertained in the case of every single poor child who is poor, and child must not be compelled to work. And second thing is that in India, in most cases, these parents are not ascertained the legal wages, there is minimum wage law, but most of the children are not given minimum wages, parents sorry, not the children, parents are not given minimum wages, neither are they getting benefits under various other schemes.

NDTV: But Kailash ji, lets say...

Kailash Satyarthi: So poverty is no excuse.

NDTV: Poverty is no excuse, but suppose there is a parent of a rag picker, bacche rag pick karte hain, hum, sab dekhte hain, and that person also earns, as she said, 100 rupees a day. Ab agar woh aone bacche koemployment mein bhejte hain, what she's asking is can that person, who doesn't even earn minimum wages, pay a 10,000 rupee fine, is that a realistic proposal?

Kailash Satyarthi: Nahi, nahi, ab woh unki baat theek hain. Unki baat mein yeh hain ki bacche majdoori mein kaam kar rahe hain, yeh to clear hain, that they are working under some sort of economic compulsion and that must not happen in ideal situation. Lekin yeh jo 10,000 rupaiy ka fine hain, the first time offender would be warned, under the amendment and the second time offender, because there are possibilities that the parents who are not simply poor but in many cases I personally found, ki jo baap nasha karta hain, sharaab karta hain, woh bacche ko ragpicker banata hain. Jo aur doosre kaamo mein paise barbaad karta hain woh apne bacche se majdoori karake khud khata hain. There was a study in Khurjah, and it was found that 80 percent, some 15-20 years ago, I think national level institute did it, on Khurjah pottery industry. 85% pita apne paise sharaab aur doosri cheeze mein barbaad karte hain, aur apne bete ko kaam pe laga kar rakha hain. Toh yeh bhi allow nahi hona chahiye, kyunki pita isiliye ke sirf woh pita hain aur sharaab aur doosre kaam kare, aur bacche ko gareebi ki aad mein kaam karaye.

NDTV: So you feel this Rs10,000 could be a deterrent, ki log thoda darenge?

Kailash Satyarthi: Yes, There's a deterrent in the repeated offense.

NDTV: Sonakshi? Let's get Sonakshi the mike.

Sonakshi: Sir we get a lot of confusing narratives regarding when we actually stop being children. So we're allowed to vote and drive at 18, but the age of consent for sex is 16, but men can only get married at 21, and then juvenile law, etc, etc, etc. So do you think this is okay, and if it's not then how do we go about fixing this problem?

NDTV: This is a very good question, because shouldn't we have a universal definition for child in India? The National Commission for Women has actually gone to the Supreme Court to make this point, because child marriages mein bhi confusion hain, personal law ke saath collision hain. So do you think it is just okay for us to say that a child under 14 shouldn't work? Shouldn't we say no children under 18 should work, at the very least?

Kailash Satyarthi: Yes, actually the laws are driven by two factors. One if the idealism, that we have to make this society a good society, so that is a moral plan idealism is involved in. Another thing is deterrent and practicalities. So I agree that there should be uniform definition of children, but that is an ideal situation, practically no where in the world, I would say no where in the world, that all forms of child labour is prohibited till 18. In some places 16, in some places 14, things like that. In most cases, hazardous child labour or worst forms of child labour is prohibited until 18, something that India is going to do, so that is there. But when it comes to the care and protection of a juvenile or a child, I think we must not compromise at any cost, that the care and protection of children be given up to a child of....

NDTV: Would you personally want a uniform definition of child?

Kailash Satyarthi: Yes, I....

NDTV: And where would you set that uniform definition, at 14, 16 or 18?

Kailash Satyarthi: 18 is the universally agreed definition already, but it will take some time. I'm pragmatic about it that you cannot fix the definition up to the age of 18, like right to education. Now right to education is up to the age of 14, but that is not the most ideal situation, should increase to 16 gradually and eventually it should reach the age of 18. So all children will be entitled to get education up to the age of 18, which is also an idealistic situation, which does not occur in most countries in the world, but we have to move towards that.

NDTV: Joy, where is Joy?

Joy: Sir, you said that education is a birthright for every child, and however the Right to Education Act is not being that effective in this country and good schools which do not follow the RTE norms will be soon losing their reputation. Now given these circumstances don't you feel that children will be forced to work instead of going to school, because the RTE Act is just proving to be otherwise in our country?

NDTV: And a lot of families, if I could just add, feel that if you can't get into an English medium school, or into a private school toh naukri nahi milegi, aur agar naukri nahi milegi toh abhi se kaam, this is the mentality, so if education is not available, and we don't have the concept of neighbourhood schools, in America where it's a level playing field...

Kailash Satyarthi: It's a worldwide debate. When we talk about education it does not mean that children are enrolled in a school and in some places they learn English medium and in other places they are just left out and so on. When we talk of education two important factors have to be included in it, rather three I would say. One is quality, quality education for all children. There can't be a compromise that quality education....

NDTV: Sir, woh kaise milega, government schools are not seen as quality....

Kailash Satyarthi: ...ki 5-10% baccho ke liyequality education mil gayi, aur baaki ke liye chorh diya. Toh doosra iske saath juda hua maamla hain ki quality must go hand in hand with equity. So equity ke bigaar quality bohut marginalised ho jaegi, so equity is equally important with the quality. And the third important thing is the inclusion. In India we fail to do this, with this Right to Education law

NDTV: Yes, yes.

Kailash Satyarthi: When we talk of education we just talk of...xxx, normally we see enrollment rates and we are very happy and very proud that our enrollment rate has gone so high, but we ignore, or deliberately tend to ignore the quality aspect, the inclusion aspect, and the equity aspect,

NDTV: And you have schools that have actually gone to court against this diktat, that 25% of your seats must be for economically backward children,

Kailash Satyarthi: Yes, because this is also a global trend Barkha Ji, that education has become a commodity or becoming a fast growing commodity. So the people who can afford to buy the most expensive so called quality education they can buy that education and others are ignored. That's why I'm saying that most children are taught how to make a chair, some children are taught how to hold this chair, and a few of us are taught how to sit on the chair and that is unacceptable, that is unacceptable.

NDTV: Niharika, where is Niharika?

Niharika: Hello Sir, Sir how do you think we can get rid of this ideology of justification, that if not in my house, he or she may end up working in a place worse than this? At least poor family is making good money, and the child in living on the premises

NDTV: Very good question, you'll hear so many upper middle class people saying, people who keep domestic help in particular, under the age of 18, woh justify karenge ki hum kaam se kam khaana de rahe hain, TV dekh sakti hain, aur bistra hain, kapde dete hain, hum sab kuch toh karte hain, kaha jaati agar apne gaaon ke school mein hoti?

Kailash Satyarthi: So there are two levels, one is the macro picture, badi picture. Globally 168 million or say around 17 crore children are in full time jobs, but on the other hand, 200 million, almost 20 crore adults are jobless. And there are ample studies that prove that these child labourers are none but the children of the very parents who are not given jobs for more than 100 days a year. So the parents remain jobless or underemployed, underpaid, and children are preferred to work because they are the cheapest source of labour or sometimes free labourers. You can take work from them day in and day out; you can keep them in workplaces; you can abuse them, sexually and otherwise, so children are easy to exploit. So that's why it goes on, aur uske liye hazaara tarah ke myths kare. So, ek toh yeh baat hame samajh mein aani chahiye ki child labour is not benefiting any economy. When we are talking about economic growth, the economic growth and child labour can never go hand in hand. If any government feels we can continue with any form of child labour and keep on continuing economic growth it's not possible.

NDTV: Is it a moral obligation on us to not keep domestic help that is underage?

Kailash Satyarthi: Yes, that's why I'm saying that it is, so that is the economic argument. But the moral argument has to built stronger and stronger ki aap apne bacche ko duniya ke sabsi acchi padaiy dilana chahte hain, sapne dikhana chahte hain, aur uske upar saara ulta seedha kharcha karte hain. Yeh saara bhrishtachar kai ke liye hota hain, khud toh aadmi kharch karega nahi, chahiye politicianho neta ho, ya officer hon, woh kai ke liye paisa jama karega, apne bete ko mehngi si mehngi padaiy, mehngi se mehngi zindagi dene ke liye, aur ghar mein ek do teen baccho ko apne yaha rakhega, domestic child labourko rakhe hue, ghar mein jo uska kutta hain woh baith jaega bistar pe jaakar, aur main aise. I have come across many incidents where the girls were burnt and branded with cigarettes and iron rods if they had courage to just switch on the television, in free time, when nobody was at home and the girl has just opened the television and started watching something, sitting at the corner, or not even that. Sometimes when the family members are watching television in their drawing rooms, and the domestic help, a poor girl, dared to watch from a window, she was caught and beaten up badly by the employers. Maalik ne usse issi tarah peeta. Toh aap yeh kyu, talk of big things, about the women in this country. You worship goddesses, you worship Goddess Lakshmi, you worship Goddess Saraswati, you worship Goddess Durga, saari Durga, jitni bhi hamare mahan deviya hain, sab mahilaye hain, lekin ek ladki ke saath hum aisa zurm karte hain ki usko ek gulaam bana dete hain, it's a hidden form of slavery, it's servitude, it is modern day slavery which is unacceptable and young people must raise the voice. You should begin with yourself and say to your friends and colleagues or think that I could have also. You can become a partner in this struggle. When you see that a child is working as domestic help in your friends or your relatives home, balki aap ki boyfriend ya girlfriend ke ghar pe bhi kaam kar raha hon toh himmat kar ke uski maa ko boliye, ki hum iss ghar mein paani bhi nahi piyenge agar yaha par bal-majdoori chal rahi hain, baccha kaam kar raha hain toh, we must begin with ourselves, we have to show our own morality and ethics.

NDTV: Seeing a question at the back, can we just get the mike? You can just come here in the front and ask the question.

Student: Hello Sir, I am a student from IIT, so sir, this question is more abstract. So when I confronted a child labourer and I asked him kiwhy are you working here? He said that I want to work here, so what should we do in such cases, when the person says that no I don't want to study, mere se padaiy nahi hoti, instead I can, you know, earn something for my family?

Kailash Satyarthi: Yes, it's quite a common question. The reality is that....

NDTV: He also has brought up a belief ki option hi nahi hain

Kailash Satyarthi: Haan exactly, toh bacche ussi tarah, aapne jawab de diya Barkha ji, ki koi option nahi hain unke paas, if we give a better option in their lives, then they would definitely love to become something bigger and better, than what they are compelled to do now. Toh ek toh hame option dene ki baat hain, school ko bhi, poori hamare teaching ke taur-tareeke ko you have to make them more child friendly, the school environment has to be more child friendly, so that we can stop the dropout rate as we see in many cases, so that's another factor. Asli cheez hain optiondena, ki hum unhe option zindagi ka nahi de paa rahe hain, but in such situations, we'll take some time, but you have to convince, you have to meet the child if you really want to bring about change, so some sustained effort is needed....

NDTV: You said that domestic servitude in modern day is a form of slavery. You have been working hard with United Nations to include this as one of its sustainable development goals. The word slavery is quite strong. You do see it as slavery?

Kailash Satyarthi: Of course, you see the number of child labourers has gone down from 260 million to 158 million in the last seventeen-eighteen years, the number of out of school children has also been reduced by more than half ...

NDTV: 158 million is still eleven percent of the world's population

Kailash Satyarthi: Its a huge number but when it comes to child slaves, the number of child slaves or forced child labor is still intact. According to United Nations itself, more than half a million children had been working five years ago as child slaves and now again five and a half million. Perhaps United Nations doesn't see it as slavery but other agencies claim that the number has gone up by eight and a half million. I believe that the number is growing because the number of trafficked children is growing. The illicit benefit and earning out of human trade and children trade is also growing, so that is why the number of child slaves has been growing in the world and that has been my complaint. And I hope that the world will listen to it that there should be explicit language being included in the sustainable development goal to abolish child slavery, so that most governments, who deny to accept and admit that slavery is there in their country, would start thinking and planning.

NDTV: If you ask people today does slavery exist in our country everyone will say no, but you are reminding us that child labour is slavery

Kailash Satyarthi: Hundreds of children were rescued this year from Delhi and last year many more and all of them were rescued under Bondage Labor Abolition Act and that is modern day system that bondage labor is modern day slavery. So who can deny that India does not have child slaves?

NDTV: Disturbing to think about it

Shubhit: Many foreign countries have invested in third world countries for the cheap labour that we offer. Sir these countries belong to first world countries with strict laws against child labour. However they still go ahead and invest in slave labour, like in 2007 case in Delhi where they still went ahead and sold clothes made by children to first world countries. So would you consider it hypocrisy on our part of modern nations that they try to sell their idea of moral standards of good and bad on countries like us?

Kailash Satyarthi: Very good question, First of all I would say that we should not consider ourselves as a third world country, that is an old idea, that is nothing like third world and first world and we are in one world and we have to think that we have to create one world, because we are so connected with technology and market production and everything. In this age of globalisation, there are many things that are not good for poor people and one of them is that companies look out for cheap labour and cheap raw materials. And sometimes they look for poor countries to find the cheap source of labour and none but the children, because they are the cheapest source of labour. So in their supply chain you can see there are large number of people, the example of gap that you gave, we only rescued twelve children and it was a big case and I raised this issue, perhaps you were not born at that time, about carpet industry. I raised this issue with carpet industry also when I realised that a large number of children are enslaved and the carpet industries of India, Pakistan and Nepal and now Afghanistan also, but before that...

NDTV: And you started a weave that did not use child labour

Kailash Satyarthi: Yes and it is the responsibility of the international companies to ensure that child labour is not exploited

NDTV: How privileged is that system, how often do multinational use sweatshops?

Kailash Satyarthi: They use, we still keep on restoring children, which are in those industries, but its very difficult now Barkha ji to find out who is working for whom, because they have become very clever. The entire supply chain and production chain is so clever that the big companies do not want to leave any signal or sign of who is working for whom. So even you rescue children from an industry producing items for export purposes we cannot identify who was working. So that is the clever idea of these companies so they must not consider the poor countries and poor people could be enslaved. I think we must face this that the supply chain must be held accountable and the international companies must be held accountable.

Audience: My question is that during the recent controversy of Greenpeace and Ford Foundation and has it created some trust deficit between the government and the civil society, since we heard that the PM advised the judiciary that do not get influenced by the five star activists, so are you one of them now?

Kailash Satyarthi: Do I look like one with my old chappals? These chappals are very old, my wife is fighting with me that Kailash ji buy some new chappals and I said, I won't buy until they are working. I have no much knowledge about the details of it but I have heard these matters were going on from many years

NDTV: But these breakdowns between the governments in the civil society, because you are an activist now, how do you read the larger breakdown?

Kailash Satyarthi: I think this is raised by some of the vocal civil society organizations, but there are definitely thousands of NGOs working passionately, dedicatedly, honestly on the ground and they are much more important to be taken in account.

NDTV: But foreign funding is coming under attack. Do you think that NGOs can survive without foreign funding?

Kailash Satyarthi: I don't think so. There should be some scrutiny about it, but I must say that we live in a globalised world and the economy is growing. When the market and production is growing, the knowledge is growing and even the human capital they can go. I don't believe in visa borders and barriers, the people should go anywhere and go and work and anything. These things would be achieved in ten, yes fifteen yeas or in twenty years time. So I think that independence and constructive, criticism may be, but critical, constructive voices of independent people and organisation are very important in any democracy.

Audience: Firstly I would like to congratulate you for the Nobel Prize. You share the prize with Malala, and so after 68 years of war and separation do you actually feel that we are actually separated when it comes to this issue?

NDTV: You know and I would also like to remind you that when the horrible attack happened on the school in Peshawar, you were on a phone line with me and I was anchoring. And you said that tell this Taliban that take me and leave the children. So it was that emotional for you. The relationship between both the nations is complicated but it was a joint Nobel. I remember I interviewed both of you also, How do you see this. Do you think that you and Malala can bring both the countries together?

Kailash Satyarthi: Let me tell that I had been working and had been trying to help the children in Pakistan from the last 25 years also. I have been going to Pakistan and I strongly believe that the Pakistani children are also my children as Indians are, as Americans are, as Africans are, as Bangladeshis are. All children are my children and that is why we should feel that all the children in the world are our children. So my relation with the Pakistani relation is that level, emotional

NDTV: And you were consoling her

Kailash Satyarthi: No, when you took the interview and brought it on the air I will tell you that hundreds, hundreds of my Pakistani friends called up, and they have never come across any person, in their own country, who has said ki Taaliban aap mujhe le lo aur mere baccho ko chhod do, jo 500 bacche aapne band kar rakhe hai, jiss sameh voh hamlaa ho raha tha school ke upar, lekin that was my spontaneous reaction, it was there. Toh mein sochta hoon ki yeh, jo Pakistan aur India ke beech jo political aur national security keissues hai they should be dealt by different people, they are big people. But as an ordinary and humble citizen of India and who loves Pakistani children and Pakistani people, I strongly believe that there should be more trust building between the people of these two countries.

NDTV: There was this moving moment when Malala was looking at the uniform in which she was shot, and she breaks down and you are the one consoling her.

Kailash Satyarthi: Haan, kyuki voh toh meri beti ki tarah hai, aur voh kehti bhi hai mujhko Abu.

NDTV: Abu kehti hai

Kailash Satyarthi: Haan haan, abu hi kehti hai. Voh meri wife ko kehti hai Ammi aur mujhe abu. Abhi humne usse thodi der pehlephone kiya toh meri issi tarah usse baat hui aur meri patni, Sumidha ji, ne usko samjhaya ki tum padhai mein man lagao, khoob padho, yeh karo, voh karo, voh hamesha se humewarn karti hai toh that relationship is there

NDTV: And it's horrible actually, to see some of the men who attacked her walk away scott free. Let's take the next question, Nikunsh?

Nikunsh: Sir, hamaari abhi kaafi mudho mein baat ho rahi thi, ek mudh jo mere mann mein aata hai voh hai ki recently, Madhya Pradesh mein agar hum dekhe toh midday meal ki jahaan baat hui thi toh unhone midday mealmein unde dene se mana kar diya tha, ban kar diya tha. Now agar mein socho ki mein ek baccha hoon, mujhe theek se nutrition nahi mil raha, khana nahi mil raha, kucch nahi mil raha toh phir mein kyu jaaonga, mera incentive khatam ho jaata hai na. Toh aapko lagta hai ki yeh saahi disha mein chal rahe he?

Kailash Satyarthi: Mein yeh sochta hoon, kher yeh toh ek bahut alag controversy hai aur isse religious sentiments vagare ke saath nahi jodhna chaiye. Lekin jahaan tak schoolon mein yah kahi bhi mass scale mein aapko khana banana hai aur khana dena hai toh agar ek tarah ka kahana hai jo sabhi bacche kha sake, toh zyada asaani hoti hai,practically. Ab kuch bacche unde nahi khate, yah bahut saare nahi khate, toh iskosegregate karna, alag alag pakana ek hischool ki andar yeh bahut mushkil kaam hai. Toh khana jo healthy ho, aur sab bacche kha sakhe, ek saath ban sake practically,nah ki hum isse koi aur debate...

NDTV: Toh aap keh rahe ho ki practically, johdemand hai of egg, because food right activists said ki protein, protein ki zaroorat hai.

Kailash Satyarthi: Lekin zyada bacche toh kha nahi re na, agar aap pata karenge, toh zyada bacche schoolon ke andar, unda nahi kha rahe. Agar lagbhag sabh bacche kuch aise chiz kha sakte hai, daal, daliya, doublerotiya, biscuit vagera. Tab bacche kha lete hein, kareeb kareeb. kabhi kabhi unko aur koi mithai de diya, phal de diya,  toh yeh laghbhag laghbhag sab kha letein hai. Lekin jab aap unde yah koi aur chiz detein hai, kuch bacche, bahut bacche nahi khate hai, joh bacche khatein hai unke saamne demand jo bacche nahi khatei un ke loye toh bada mushkil ho ga. mein bol raha hoon kipractically voh khane dijiye. Jo bacche doodh pi rahe hai, toh doodh di jiye.

NDTV: Toh the school can't prepare two sets of meals. Yahi ke rahe hai ki bahut mushkil ho ga.

Kailash Satyarthi: Aur ande toh bahut mushkil hai kyuki mein jaanta hoon ki bahut bacche nahi khaatein, mein khud hi unda nahi khata, meine apne jeevan mein kabhi unda nahi khaya. Mein yeh maanta hoon ki agar mujhe aisi jagah jaana pade jaha sab tara ki chiz ban rahi hoti hai, toh mein baar baar bolta hoon ki is double roti mein unda toh nahi hai. Kal mein Nepal mein tha, aur bahut remote area mein tha, bada mushkil tha pata lagan ki kis double roti mein unda nahi hai, meat nahi hai yah machli nahi hai, mein shakahari hoon bada shrudh, lekin mein kissi ko impose nahi kar raha, lekin mein yeh khud sochh raha hoon ki mujhe jo khana mile...

NDTV: Toh you're saying it's a practicality issue, not a...

Kailash Satyarthi: Mujhe toh khud practicality issue lagti hai, bahut dikhat hoti hai bina unde ke khana milna

NDTV: Okay, Parul, Parul, where is Parul? Okay there...

Parul: Hi Sir, my question is, when we drive to a small town we take a stop at a dhabha and all to eat our food, we see kids, like between 5-12 working and cleaning the floors. I myself, being an educated person, feel guilty that I can't do anything, because that area is mostly, like we happen to see it in mostly remote areas and all. So what can we do to make that person, the manager of the dhabha, and the government employees of that area, to make them realise their social responsibility and their citizenship of India?

NDTV: And If I can add that a lot of us don't know how to react, I have certainly been in those dhabhas, I've eaten in those dhabas, where there have been children, I don't know if voh dhabha owner ke bacche hai, voh kahi bahar se bulaya hai, how many of you have eaten at dhabhas where children have been working? Now that's the whole hall. What should you do? Daat lagaye, police ko phonelagaye, apne corner mein parantha kha kar chale jaaye? What should you do? It's a very confusing question.

Kailash Satyarthi: It's a very relevant question, lekin mein ek baat kehna chahta hoon ki ek bright, young lady like yourself must not feel guilty for anything in your life. Must not feel guilty at all. You are change, you are change-maker you have the potential to raise your voice and bring about changes. So don't feel guilty but be a partner in bringing about change. How do you do it? I have personally faced this thing because I have been all across the country. I have travelled all across the country for the past 35 years. I tell you for years and years, when I used to travel with my wife and young children, now they are grown up, we had to keep ourselves hungry for the whole day because in the dhabhas, because there is no single dhabha where you don't find child labour, every place had child labourers, but I was determined that I won't touch a glass of water, even my children. 5-6 year old children wouldn't touch a glass of water where ever a child was working in adhabha.

NDTV: Kal ko voh bol jaaye ki family enterprise hai, hamara baccha hai.

Kailash Satyarthi: Nahi nahi, voh jhoot bol raha hai. Yeh amendment ki baat nahi hai. Mein aapko bata raha hoon, ki joh bhi kahi dhabha chala raha hai, jaha 5, 10, 15 log khana kha rahe hai, that person is capable of sending his children to school and he does it. Lekin voh jhoot bol kar dusro ke bacche ko rakh raha hai, we should completely boycott all dhabhas where we find children. We must show the courage and strength to boycott those dhabhas.

NDTV: And I have to say ki, meine nahi kiya, yaha ke people, I must confess that I have not boycotted these dhabhas where children, and I'm sure a lot of people, kyuki samajh hi nahi aata ki are you punishing a poor person more by giving them a lecture?

Kailash Satyarthi: I'm underlining it again and again, that these children are not, the children of these dhabha owners in 99, rather 100% cases except one or two. Lekin voh visible ho jayga, jaha das gaadi park hui hai itni zaada kamai ho rahi hai ki voh aapna baccha nahi lagayga, chai bejne sadak bpar lagayga ki haat dekar gaadiyon ko roko, it's not possible. So boycott first. Secondly you can use the media. You can use your smartphones, take a picture, write these things; write a complaint to these helplines, you can complain to the police, because it is against the law. Even the existing law about the new amendment, but whatever law is there we can make it a complaint, because child labour in dhabhas is completely illegal and a punishable offence. But we should know that that person is doing a punishable offence. But sometimes even I didn't know what to do. I see a child working over there, and if I have time I enter inside and I tell that person, I want to eat here, it's a beautiful place, you have nice food but I am not going to eat here because you have a child laborer. So I'm boycotting. If ten, thirty, hundred people go and tell the same thing then the person cannot afford to have the child labourer. Because if these children are working, they are working at the cost of an adult person, so if the person indulges in an argument then you can tell him ki bhaiya agar aapko itna zyada manavseva karni hi hai, toh iss bacche ke bajaye, iske pita ko rakhlo, iske bade bhai ko rakh lo. Kissi aur badde aadmi ko rakhlo kyuki agar bada aadmi full time yeh kam karega, toh full time job se usse paisa milega aur voh apne bacche ko schoolbhejega. Hume sabse pehle samajhna chaiye ki if a child is removed then a job has been created for an adult person.

NDTV: So Kailash ji, I think you've given us all something to think about, I think we've all experienced it, eaten at a dhabha. Let's go on, we have a few minutes left on the show. Manu Shriram?

Manu Shriram: Hello Sir. Sir my question is that, see we can talk in absolutist terms regarding the abolition of child labour, but one thing doesn't leave my mind: We do need to acknowledge that there are millions of children who are in a worse condition and this has been depicted in films as well like 'Slumdog Millionaire' or 'Traffic Signal', where kids fall prey to say begging cartels, or these organised crime circles. Don't you think there would be more dignity for kids to be employed instead, in a more regulated fashion where the government is overlooking?

Kailash Satyarthi: I've been saying repeatedly and I've been saying also, if you allow child labour to continue, you continue illiteracy in his life, you continue poverty, you continue ill health. So you are diminishing not only childhood, not only destroying his childhood but the rest of his life by way of employing. So the five years of employment is 50 years of liability on society. So if you invest on education, there is ample of proof, one is the Xylog Report along with the World Bank, that if you invest one dollar on the abolition of child labour now, the return would be seven times more in twenty years time. There is another study by UNESCO that shows that if you invest one dollar on education the return would be 15 dollars. So the responsibility and the obligation of the government and the states should ensure...

NDTV: So it is the responsibility of the state?

Kailash Satyarthi: Of course, if the child is begging on the street or doing anything else that is not dignified, then it is the failure of the state.

NDTV: Absolutely.

Audience: My question is that what happen to the kids Sir, if we boycott that dhaba the children working there will be removed, what will happen to them? You have rescued about eighteen thousand, what happen to that eighteen thousand rescued children and especially when we are talking about a country where we have very little orphanages and rescue centers and even in those centers children are assaulted sexually and otherwise. So what happens to these children?

NDTV: And you know, you once asked the question when some girls were forced back to prostitution, so the question that where will the kids go after being rescued?

Kailash Satyarthi: We should understand that once the children are rescued they are entitled to rehabilitation benefits and the various government schemes. So the responsibility of rehabilitation lies in the hands of the government. So the children should not suffer the consequences of the failure of the government, because the government is not able to provide rehabilitation to the children. That is why the children should work, that is one thing, if we make up any excuse then the children would be denied their future. So the children who are rescued, out of those eighty thousand children, almost every child has been provided rehabilitation facility from the central and state government.

NDTV: So the lack of rehabilitation cannot become the excuse

Kailash Satyarthi: And the rehabilitation must be the integral part of the law so that every child can get it.

Audience: Good evening Sir, I had the privilege of listening to you twice, my question to you is that the other solution that we post is that students should be sent to school, but there have been certain cases, even in the government schools, that the teachers employ those kids who come to them, for gaining the education, in their own homes, so they are asked to do their menial jobs in their homes and even in schools. So how do you cater to that?

Kailash Satyarthi: The only answer is that whenever we see something wrong against children we must raise our voice. Don't be silent, break your silence and raise your voice. If teachers are doing something wrong with the children by employing them, speak out, speak loudly, which you are doing now, whenever you see children working you just write to a relevant agency, raise your voice.

NDTV: Last question from me. The proposed changes in the juvenile, lowering the under, who can be considered a juvenile. Where do you come in that?

Kailash Satyarthi: The age of care and protection is concerned I would never compromise on lowering the age. All children up to the age of fourteen must be given fullest care and protection. When it comes to the crime, when they are taking about lowering the age, up to sixteen, in the most heinous forms of crime like killing or gang rape, something like that, the provision is very clear, that within six months of the production of the child the inquiry will be completed and the JJ Board will take care whether the child should be sent to the care center. I agree with the law that says that the children will not be sent to the normal jail with other adult criminals and there will be a regular checks and balance and provision that would be referred by the Juvenile Justice Board. I am okay with it only in heinous crimes. So I welcome, most parts of the law are quite good. I must say about defining other crimes against children, inclusion of child bondage labour, child beggary or against forced beggary, like that, so these things are the positive sides of the law.

NDTV: So well Kailash ji you have not only inspired us, you also made us question many of our own assumptions and many of our own actions. It has been an extraordinary journey for you. Lets make a huge round of applause as we thank you Kailash ji.