In a rare, candid interview to NDTV, Pranab Mukherjee talks of the rift with Mr Chidambaram, tackling the Telangana crisis, and the future leadership of the Congress. Mirati, West Bengal:Sreenivasan Jain: We're in a relaxed environment, away from Delhi, particularly given the fact that it's been a very politically volatile previous year. I know that this is a very traditional ritual for you. You come every year for many years. But it also allows you to get away, for some time at least from all the politicking and all that
Pranab Mukherjee: I don't look at it from that point of view. It's a part of our family tradition. Moreover, as a village boy I grew up in this atmosphere, up to my graduation. For 20-21 yrs of my formative stage I lived in this atmosphere. I studied at the high school. If you walk from this place to my school it will be about 5 kms. Every day we had to commute this. I used to identify every tree, every turn. We used to commute through the paddy fields. There was no road, not even a kachcha road. I grew up in this area, in this atmosphere up to my graduation. I studied in the district college. Except for the summer vacation and Puja vacation I used to come. District college is almost in the village atmosphere. Therefore I grew up in this atmosphere. So whenever I come it is not merely to meet some relatives or do some rituals. In one way I rediscover myself. I find my roots.
Sreenivasan Jain: It's wonderful to see you in this environment. Because it's a very different Pranab Mukherjee we see. But would you say that the past year has been a very politically difficult time for the UPA. You've been in the thick of managing a no. of crises. Has it been difficult?
Pranab Mukherjee: Of course. It was a very difficult year, no doubt. We had difficulties. Economic difficulties were there. Political unrest due to some agitations, the latest one being Telangana. The agitation organized by Shri Anna Hazare and his associates was a little bit unexpected. Interjection on Shri Ramdev's agitation and some demands, which I don't know how to meet or respond to... These type of situations happened. But, after all you have to keep in mind that in a volatile political situation, in a volatile international economic situation, running the government and guiding the political parties in power is not a very easy task.
Sreenivasan Jain: No, I agree with you. I want to come to the economy in a minute but I just want to ask you about some of these particular crises that you were directly involved in. For example, in managing the Anna Hazare crisis. Many believed that until you intervened the government was simply not able to control the situation and that it was only your intervention that brought it to a resolution.
Pranab Mukherjee: No. I didn't join at the last stage. I was involved from the very beginning. I must not appropriate credit for myself for what happened in the last stage. Everybody cooperated. Because I was dealing from the very beginning, I knew A to Z. Whatever I stated in Parliament, and I must tell you that I spoke nothing but the truth, was absolutely true. I chronologically explained whatever happened from day one. Those who knew I was telling the truth brought credibility to my observations. That is one advantage I had. Second advantage I had was cooperation, a collective effort. The BJP cooperated, my colleagues who had negotiations with Anna Hazare and his associates also cooperated. Ultimately Shri Anna Hazare and his team also cooperated. One area is still there. I told Shri Hazare and all the members several times that you understand our limitations. If Congress Party would have 274 members in the Lok Sabha and 125 members in the Rajya Sabha then you could have put pressure on me as a leader of the Congress Party to get the bill passed. But even if I give you a guarantee with 206 in the Lok Sabha and 79 in the Rajya Sabha... on my own strength I cannot give it, so I shall have to take other political parties with me. I shall have to carry our alliances with us. Therefore it would have to be a collective exercise. Please don't give a deadline that by 15th August it will have to pass. That caused some problem. The deadline was unnecessary.
Sreenivasan Jain: But in the end you did manage to get a sense of the House. You managed to reach some solution which was acceptable to them at that time. Do you believe that you conceded too much at the end?
Pranab Mukherjee: No. My problem was to maintain the parliamentary sovereignty fully. Parliamentary supremacy in the area of legislation is to be maintained. At the same time it was my effort to see that the Parliament agrees in general principle, not on a particular substantive motion. Always there will be a risk of voting, a section of the House getting divided. Those who do not agree with the language of the motion... But if we see what the consensus of the House is, wish of the House is... as expressed that we should have agreement on this looking at the suggestions of Shri Anna Hazare, the recommendations of the Committee, and the recommendations of civil society representatives, which should then be forwarded to the relevant standing committee and....we went one step forward when I requested the Speaker to appreciate the issues in a larger perspective. I would be better. I said that it is not usual. I am requesting an unusual thing that if you kindly allow the entire proceedings of the House to be transmitted to the Standing Committee. She readily agreed. Every Member came to the table and accepted it. This is our strength. Sometimes you undermine it but this is our strength. In the morning nobody recognized that it will emerge in this manner at the end of the day but it happened. Many a times you will find that it happens.
Sreenivasan Jain: Is it unfortunate then that today Anna Hazare says that unless the Congress signs on the Jan Lokpal Bill and gives us a written letter supporting it then we will ask people to vote against the Congress in the next elections?
Pranab Mukherjee: No. As an individual or as a group leader it is whose prerogative that you accept my demand? And if you don't accept my demand then I will ask people to vote against you. In democracy it happens but I don't think that in 125 years the party need not be worried over it. We have faced so many crises in our life. In my small life I have seen many major political crises in the Congress Party and we have overcome it. Because if the people have faith in us then we will overcome it.
Sreenivasan Jain: Doesn't it vitiate the atmosphere of the negotiations that you had with him when he makes such statements?
Pranab Mukherjee: I think nobody should take an extreme position. That is my general view.
Sreenivasan Jain: The other very difficult crisis that you are negotiating is Telangana. You are in the middle of that process. I know it's a very sensitive matter but what are your concerns on moving forward on that? About conceding to the demands of a separate state?
Pranab Mukherjee: My problem is that I have always seen, though I have not always dealt with the Telangana problem, that the Telangana agitations are highly emotive. Every language and regional issue is emotive. So Telangana is also an emotive issue. There is no easy way to find a solution but we have to try. We are working. We are talking to our people. But the exact timeframe is difficult to indicate. Let us see.
Sreenivasan Jain: The groups asking for a separate Telangana include members of all political parties, including Congress leaders from the region...
Pranab Mukherjee: The party differences have been blurred. There are regional differences now.
Sreenivasan Jain: Yes, whether you are Congress or anybody from that region. They believe that the government made a commitment to Telangana which now they are reneging on. Is that a fair observation?
Pranab Mukherjee: No, its not. The question is that there has always been because the problem is so complex it hasn't been resolved for the past 50-60 years. The problem arose, thereafter there had been a gentleman's agreement, six-month formula, developmental issues. After all, if you look at it in a larger context then many more problems will come in the future because there was no pattern for the formation of the Indian state. Even in the contemporary history of the last 400-500 years there was no pattern. How were states formed? When the country became independent everything south of the Vindhyas was divided into two presidency provinces, Bombay Presidency and Madras Presidency. There was no state like Rajasthan during the British days. And when the country became independent it was called Rajputana, a conglomeration of a large number of princely states. So how these states have been formed over the years is an interesting subject of study and it has its problems.
Sreenivasan Jain: Are you worried that any further delays in conceding to the demands will lead to greater violence?
Pranab Mukherjee: Fear and apprehension of violence is there and therefore we are appealing that come what may try and avoid the violence. Mass frenzy sometimes creates a situation where to control the situation and maintain law and order becomes difficult. So everybody must try and avoid it. After all, violence doesn't help anybody. Violence causes harm to everyone.
Sreenivasan Jain: Let me ask you about the economy now. Many feel that recent political events, and this is the uncharitable view taken by the Opposition, have lead to a situation where there is not much policy movement. The indicators seem a little worrying. Is that a fair assessment? And are you worried about a number of recent indicators?
Pranab Mukherjee: No. I am not worried about the allegation that there is no policy initiative. There are policy initiatives. I am just giving you two examples. We have introduced the Mineral Development and Regulations Act, the new mining act, a major act, after a good deal of consultations. But still some consultation is needed because in the cabinet meeting it was suggested, and there is justification, that when the West Bengal Government gave their opinion on this will, the political executive has been changed in the election so you seek the opinion of the new political executive. We have given them some time and I hope that it will be done. Similarly, we have an initiative for the manufacturing policy. A good deal of discussions have taken place on the New Manufacturing Policy. Here too West Bengal Government wants some time to give their comments. They will be available shortly. These are the initiatives that we have taken. FDI is being worked on. We have several rounds on discussion on whether to increase FDI in defence. Of course there are different views. Twenty six per cent is allowed now through the rations route but nobody us coming. We are doing all that is possible through executive decisions. What is to be done through legislative action cannot be done by us alone. That's why I repeatedly appeal, and particularly very exhaustively, in my response and reply on the debate on price hike to Yashwant Sinha that much depends on you on how closely and cooperatively that we can work. That means that the BJP and Congress, if they cooperate on major economic legislations to get them passed, will bring a sea change. 4-5 legislations are still pending such as Insurance Amendment Act, FDI, Banking Amendment Act, Constitutional Amendment Act over GST. If these three amendments/acts are improved... Without the cooperation of the principal opposition party it is very difficult to get it passed. If we get it passed then you will see a sea change.
Sreenivasan Jain: There are 2-3 indicators that some say are a matter of concern that I want to take you one-by-one through. Looking at the fiscal deficit, there are some concerns that you might not be able to meet 4.6%, the figure you gave in the Budget. Is that going to be possible?
Pranab Mukherjee: Very difficult. Not because of others. I myself am responsible for reducing the gap. The fiscal deficit this year is 4.7% Last year when I presented the Budget it was to be 5.5%. I projected that for 2010-11 it would be 5.5% and that for 2011-12 it would be 4.6%. That was my projection. But this year, because of the bonanza of 3G spectrum I got a substantial amount and it helped me to improve the fiscal deficit from 5.5% to 4.7%. That's why the gap is now 0.1%. It is also very difficult to maintain it statistically. But still we are trying to do that and I shall have to work very hard along with my colleagues and all others because fiscal consolidation is absolutely needed. Otherwise if there is a fiscal profligacy at the top of it then.... the high sovereign debt in the Euro Zone should act as an eye-opener to all of us. Therefore, it is very difficult but at the same time I would like to try to see that if we can maintain it. I know it is difficult but we will collectively have to make efforts.
Sreenivasan Jain: You have borrowed recently...
Pranab Mukherjee: Now what would be the impact of the recent borrowings? Arithmetically naturally it will be more, about 1%. But I am not looking at it from an accountant's point of view because it is a little mismatch in the cash flow. This year we decided that we will have an upfront refund on the direct taxes. Therefore the gross collection of direct taxes has increased more than 20% but the net flow to the exchequer has been less because of a more than 100% increase in the refund. But I am told by my officers that next quarter onwards it will start easing because we have paid the refund that would have to be paid throughout the year of 12 months substantially in 4 months.
Sreenivasan Jain: What about the GDP figures? They also seem to be steadily dropping?
Pranab Mukherjee: The first quarter figures are 7.7%. According to my budget estimate it is substantially down but I hope we will be able to have it around 8%. The Rangarajan Committee at one point suggested 8.2%. IMF has said that it will be 7.8% for the calendar year. But taking the fiscal year of our calculations I am still hoping to have it around 8% but beyond that it is difficult for me to say.
Sreenivasan Jain: The BJP is making aggressive noises saying that the UPA is a divided house, that there are internal divisions. This is a time for us to move, act, push for early elections. Are they playing the politics of instability?
Pranab Mukherjee: If you go by the classical theory of opposition then the role of the opposition is to oppose, to expose, and finally to depose if possible. So they are trying that but I think they should not read too much into these so called differences. Rather they should concentrate on themselves because after all it is also not a very united house. If you look at their past records, so much literature has come I need not mention to you the book of Strobe Talbott or what happened in Kandahar between two senior ministers. I am not mentioning their names deliberately. Therefore these things are there in a multi-party political system. In big parties there may be differences some times, but I can assure you, and through you I would like to assure your viewers that Government is in command of the things. There is calm leadership in the Government by Dr. Manmohan Singh. There is strong leadership in the party by Mrs. Sonia Gandhi. There is perfect coordination and harmonization between the party and the Government. I hope that with this message of unity and optimism, of course it is my optimism, I think that we can end the conference.
Sreenivasan Jain: Do you think that reconciliation has happened successfully?
Pranab Mukherjee: Both myself and Chidambaram addressed the media and Mr Chidambaram said chapter is closed and I have admitted it. So what is the question?
Sreenivasan Jain: The whole point is sir, as you've said so many times, you have so much regard for Mr Chidambaram.
Pranab Mukherjee: Who? For everybody. I have high regard for Mr Chidambaram. He is a very good, competent minister and I have worked with him for several years.
Sreenivasan Jain: But just to re-iterate sir because this is important from the point of view of the Government that this is not just a cosmetic exercise. It is in fact a closed chapter.
Pranab Mukherjee: From both our point of view.
Sreenivasan Jain: I want to ask you about the future leadership of the Congress. Now you are a united house. As you go down the line...
Pranab Mukherjee: Of course Congress has always provided new leadership. You compare and tell the BJP. Since 1951, when it was established, and particularly from the 1960s these are the two leaders we've had, Vajpayee and Advani. After Deendayal's death they have emerged. The Communist Party, till the other day, had old Politburo members from the 1920s and 1930s. Surjeet, Jyoti Basu... Now the new generation has come with Prakash Karat and others. In between you have seen how many young people have come into the Congress Party. Apart from Rajiv, at what age did Indira Gandhi become PM? She wasn't even 50. In 1966 she became PM when she was 49. She became Congress President when she was 42. Jawaharlal Nehru became Congress President when he was 40. Azad was 36. Therefore the Congress has provided young leadership throughout its life.
Sreenivasan Jain: Are you hinting then that this is Rahul's time? He is the young leader. He is the future of the party?
Pranab Mukherjee: He will emerge as the leader of the party, no doubt.
Sreenivasan Jain: But will Dr. Manmohan Singh complete his full term?
Pranab Mukherjee: Of course. There is no question of mid-term elections or things like that. I am repeating Mrs. Sonia Gandhi. During the release of the manifesto friends like you asked her that who would be the PM if the Congress Party is again asked to lead the coalition or if they get absolute majority? In the manifesto there were two pictures of Soniaji and PM. She herself took the manifesto, covered her own picture with her right hand and showed it to the media. You get the answer.
Sreenivasan Jain: What about you sir? You...
Pranab Mukherjee: Thank you. (Gets up from his chair)
Sreenivasan Jain: Pranab da, last question. About you? Your family says it's very keen that you must now take another, higher position.
Pranab Mukherjee: I am quite happy where I am. I am quite happy. Thank you.
Sreenivasan Jain: Thank you very much.