'Role of state actors in 26/11 can't be ruled out'

India cannot rule out the involvement of Pakistan's state actors in the 26/11 attack, says Home Minister P Chidambaram. Mr Chidmabaram, who was in the NDTV studios and speaking exclusively on the show The Buck Stops Here, said that for Pakistan to not act against Hafiz Saeed is atrocious.

Sharing, for the first time, details of the exact role that the Laskhar-e-Toiba chief played in the attacks. He said there was evidence that Saeed was involved in training Ajmal Kasab and others to fire on targets.

These details and Islamabad's failure to act against Saeed will be raised by the Home Minister in his talks with senior American officials later this week. Chidambaram said Pakistan was simply inventing new questions and it would be a charade for them to keep asking for more dossiers.

Here are some excerpts from the interview with Home Minister P Chidambaram:

Read the full transcript of the interview:

On Pakistan, Hafiz Saeed, and US visit:

Barkha Dutt: When Hillary Clinton  was here and when we asked her about Hafiz Saeed, at that point the Pakistan government had actually appealed against the court order which said that he need not be arrested. But since then, as you  have said yourself several times  nothing has moved on the arrest of Hafiz Saeed. Now is that some thing you will raise with Washington that Washington need to weighs upon Islamabad that it has to act against hafiz Saeed?

Mr Chidmabaram: Well if there is an opportunity I will take them through the dossier. It has already been shared with many countries.

Barkha Dutt: 16 countries I think.

Mr Chidmabaram: Yes, including US so they know what we have. If there is an opportunity I will take them through the dossier to point out that there is enough evidence to continue the case against Hafiz Saeed. In the face of this evidence to let him off, I think is atrocious.

Barkha Dutt: And that is something you will communicate to Washington.

Mr Chidmabaram: Well it has been communicated but I am sure there will be an opportunity to discuss that.

Barkha Dutt: You say there is enough evidence in the sixth dossier. What is the nature of the evidence against Hafiz Saeed?

Mr Chidmabaram: Well I am not going to read out the dossier to you. But I will highlight some things. Firstly we know when Kasab first met Hafiz  and where. We know what Hafiz Saeed told the trainees. We know at least a couple of places where the training took place. And that  Hafeez Saeed visited these camps. We know that it was Hafiz Saeed who gave names to buddy pairs. The final farewell call was made by Hafiz and Hafiz Saeed even tested Kasab and others on their training achievements.

Barkha Dutt: When you say he tested them you mean he ran them through some kind of drill?

Mr Chidmabaram: Well he asked them to fire some targets. We know that the final instructions were given by Hafiz Saeed. So all these things are known - places, approximate dates, names, visits made by Hafiz Saeed. Now in the face of these evidence how does  the prosecutor say that I have no leads to continue the investigation?

Barkha Dutt: And when Islamabad say that even this evidence is inadequate. They have more questions they say?

Mr Chidmabaram: Well if they want to invent questions they are welcome to do so. But I think that they  have come to the end of the road. They cannot invent more questions. We have answered all their questions in the successive dossiers. It's now time to take these leads and do a proper traditional investigation. Arrest the person, take him to these places and ask the person questions. I mean just the ground work of investigation which any inspector will know how to do.

Barkha Dutt: Can you share some more details? When you say that actually Hafiz Saeed asked Kasab to fire at the targets and that he was part of the last training? Can you share some more details?

Mr Chidmabaram: Well we know that he was accompanied by a person who was  described as "major gen saab". Hafiz Saeed told a person to set up 10 targets and he asked each of the selected terrorist to fire at the targets. We know that Kasab fired target number four. Now is this not enough detail to take up the investigations?

Barkha Dutt: You say Hafiz Saeed was accompanied by a "major general sahab". Is it the assessment of the Home Ministry that it this is a serving or retired Pakistani army officer?

Mr Chidmabaram: We don't know.

Barkha Dutt: But it's possible?

Mr Chidmabaram: He could be serving; he could be retired.

Barkha Dutt: But definitely an army officer? Or is it just a name, a nick name?

Mr Chidmabaram: Well very unlikely. He should have been a Major General at some time.

Barkha Dutt: So does it concern you that at some point this could link to someone in the Pakistan army?

Mr Chidmabaram: Well that can only be revealed by the investigation. We have never ruled out state actors although Pakistan has always maintained that there are only non-state actors involved. We have never ruled out state actors and we have never accepted this distinction between state actors and non state actors as both operate from Pakistan soil.

Barkha Dutt: If you are not ruling out the involvement of state actors and you have gone on record saying that Pakistani government is deliberately stifling the probe, is it your assessment that the state of Pakistan is somewhere involved in covering up for 26/11?

Mr Chidmabaram: No, no. Covering up is a strong word but there is for some strange reasons an unwillingness to take the investigations forward. What they told the common friendly countries; what they have told the Prime Minister is that they will spare no effort to prosecute and punish the perpetrators. In the light of that, letting off  Hafiz is unacceptable. And I don't know who else is involved. There is a major general sahab for example. So unless there is a proper investigation I am not in a position to say that Pakistan intends to keep its promise. Why they are unwilling to take the investigation forward I cannot say.

Barkha Dutt: Is there any information available with your intelligence agencies that there could be any involvement of state actors in 26/11 and thereafter?

Mr Chidmabaram: Investigations will establish whether the state actors were involved or not but I am not ruling out the possibility.

Barkha Dutt: Now when you say that at this stage Pakistan is merely inventing new question can we take it to mean that there will not be more dossiers? Was the sixth dossier the last dossier?

Mr Chidmabaram: How can I say that. If they do invent more questions...

Barkha Dutt: You will continue to answer them?

Mr Chidmabaram: I will answer them with a growing sense of frustration. I still have to answer them. Shouldn't I?

Barkha Dutt: Well some would say that if the Home Minister has decided that there are no more questions to answer them then why continue with the whole process of multiple dossiers?

Mr Chidmabaram: I know its a charade.

Barkha Dutt: You acknowledge its a charade?

Mr Chidmabaram: After a point it's a charade. But I don't want to give them any quarter to say that answers are not forthcoming therefore we are not investigating.

On whether Naxals are terrorists:

Barkha: Do you feel that the state government doesn't want to take risk in this area (Lalgarh)? Is this because of absence of political will?

Mr Chidambaram: Well there are number of factors. The way the state police is organised. The way the state police is deployed is also a factor. I think that there are political factors in the West Bengal government which is affecting the command and control of the operation.

Barkha: This is not the operation the Home Ministry is willing to conduct on itself?

Chidambaram: No, How can I conduct an operation?

Barkha: Why not?

Chidambaram: Not unless the state government says that "We cannot do it. You do it". They haven't said that yet.

Barkha: But given the general policy on Naxalism once you identify them as terrorists. What does it do to your policy of being willing to talk to them?

Chidambaram: Wait a minute. I have not said that they are terrorists in the sense that I characterise the cross border terrorists and home grown terrorists.

Barkha: What is the difference?

Chidambaram: I said that acts which they perpetrated were acts of terrorism.

Barkha: But are Naxals terrorists?

Chidambaram: Not all but certainly some acts amount to terrorists acts. The Naxals believe in arms liberation struggle. Now I am elected to office and have taken oath by a republican Constitution which rejects arms liberation struggle. So no government in India can accept an armed liberation struggle. We are implacably opposed to each other. How do you break this? So we have said, "If you abjure violence, give up arms liberation struggle we are willing to talk to you about your grievance, structure of local administration, of development, about money, about  corruption. We are willing to talk on any issue which Naxals think.

Barkha: But are there preconditions that they have to lay down their arms?

Chidambaram: No we want them to abjure violence. That is all we have said.

Read the full transcript of the interview: