Anna Hazare built his reputation by transforming this drought prone village of Ralegan Siddhi, just about an hour and a half east of Pune, into a green, self-contained rural oasis. Today as a national icon his laboratory has widened and he can transpose the Ralegan rules to the rest of India. But what exactly is the Anna Hazare rulebook over which there has been so much interest and controversy? There's no better place to ask those questions than here in Ralegan where we had a chance to talk to him extensively to understand and get a glimpse in to the world of Anna Hazare.Ralegan Sidhi: At the temple of the local deity, a small crowd of Anna devotees begins to gather since the morning, he meets us in the sparse room in the temple has doubled as his home for the past three decades.
He says he is not interested in talking politics and asks us to see the transformation of the village, which he says contains lessons that have national resonance.
Today, the pilgrims may come for Anna, but there was a time when Ralegan was a pilgrimage for all those interested in Gandhian ideas of Gram Swaraj in action - how self mobilised communities can conserve water and practise sustainable agriculture to transform their fields and their lives.
Later Anna meets us next to the village's main water reservoir - to explain the challenges he faced in effecting change.
He says, "Ralegan Siddhi is located in a drought prone area. Here almost 80% of the people were starving. This was barren land. 80% of the people would eat only once a day and then sleep hungry. They would travel 6 km just to go and break stones. There was no work, no food, so they started producing alcohol. Soon there were 30-35 liquor shops in the village. So when I came back from the army I came upon the works of Swami Vivekananda and was inspired by it."
But that change, specially the fight against alcoholism required methods that do not easily fall into Gandhian principles. Excerpts from the interview (Read full interview here):
Anna Hazare: Now the village was getting the benefits of our programs. So the village panchayat decided that no one would run a liquor shop. Earlier you had a need, now God has given you opportunities, so now why do you need to make alcohol? So the village had decided, but some people surreptitiously continued to deal in alcohol. Then about 40-45 youth of the village came together.
Sreenivasan Jain: Like a united force?
Anna Hazare: Yes. And they went around shutting down these operations. Now people could not come up against these youths, nor could they go and complain at the police station...
Sreenivasan Jain: Because it was an illegal operation...
Anna Hazare: So because of this people had to shut down the liquor shops.
Sreenivasan Jain: But even then did some of the villagers continue to drink?
Anna Hazare: Yes some used to hide and drink...the liquor shops in the village had closed, but some people used to drink outside and then return. Then they used to disturb the peace, behave badly. So it was decided in the village that if anyone misbehaved after drinking then they would be warned the first 3 times because after all, he was one of us.
Sreenivasan Jain: And if he did not see reason?
Anna Hazare: If he did not reform even after being warned 3 times then he would have to go to the temple and take a vow that he would never touch alcohol. Even then if he did not correct his ways then he would be tied to the electric pole outside the temple. This was started by the youth.
Sreenivasan Jain: Tied and...
Anna Hazare: He would be tied and then beaten. Not a lot, a little bit. By tying him up he is also being shamed.
Sreenivasan Jain: So in front of everyone he is being tied up, everyone is watching...
Anna Hazare: But we did this for his own good.
Sreenivasan Jain: If he is being shamed, beaten...then he will understand that what he is doing is wrong.
Anna Hazare: Yes. Today people say that if at that time we had not been tied then they would have ended up destroying their lives.
Sreenivasan Jain: People say it now?
Anna Hazare: Yes that is what they tell me now. But not everyone can do this.
Sreenivasan Jain: Yes, it is a very tough job...
Anna Hazare: Yes, it is difficult. For that one has to become like a mother. The demand for prohibition is not limited to Anna Hazare alone. Some of these movements have used force like Manipur's famous night patrollers - women who would beat up drunk men returning from liquor shops.
Social activist, Pushpa Bhave who had worked with Anna many years ago says, "Women in villages always ask me why city people do not understand Darumukti and as Anna himself said media people themselves are engrossed in it, so they won't understand."
But why do questions remain on Anna's methods?
Bhave says, "Mentioning flogging in a democracy is not correct but he wouldn't understand the niceties of the argument. You must have a Gandhian perception of the liquor problem, Gandhi didn't look at it as a moral or ethical problem, he looked at it as an economic problem."
Sreenivasan Jain: Annaji, you have addressed the problem of alcoholism here in this particular village, but a lot of people believe this is a problem that affects the entire country...so do you think we should take up this issue of prohibition on a wider scale as well?
Anna Hazare: There are 2 things one has to do for this. One is educating the people and creating awareness.
Sreenivasan Jain: Against alcoholism?
Anna Hazare: After all, why do people drink? It's not like there is any proof that if you drink, you will become very healthy. Drinking causes TB & cancer. Even then why do people indulge in it? It's because people have no understanding about life. They don't think about things like who they are, where do they come from, what is their duty in life, where do they have to go. They have a limited view. They think life means just eat and drink, after all eventually you have to die. This why he eats and drinks anything. That is why they need education and awareness.
Sreenivasan Jain: So firstly we need education?
Anna Hazare: Yes, education and awareness. Once he understands the meaning of life then he will automatically mend his ways. But it will take time.
Sreenivasan Jain: Only if this happens then prohibition can be imposed on a national level?
Anna Hazare: When a person's behavior does not change then you need fear...
Sreenivasan Jain: You need the law?
Anna Hazare: Fear. But not everyone can do it, for that you need to become a mother first.
Sreenivasan Jain: How will that happen on a national level?
Anna Hazare: Like a mother goes through so much hardship for her child, and if the child makes a mistake then she even slaps the child. So like that when the volunteers took on the roles of mothers...we have to burn like a lamp & suffer for society and then if someone makes a mistake then there is nothing wrong in punishing him.
Sreenivasan Jain: So you have punished the person, but even then the law allows the sale of alcohol...
Anna Hazare: Not everything can be done by the law. This is the biggest mistake of govt. On the one hand they have opened a department to combat alcoholism, and on the other they have a department for excise.
Sreenivasan Jain: So why don't you make this an issue? Why not have a national ban or campaign on prohibition?
Anna Hazare: I have made this an issue and taken it up with the govt. There is a booklet we have made. Read it. It is about what the government has done to address the issue of alcohol due to our campaign.
Sreenivasan Jain: Would you want this to be banned on a national scale if possible?
Anna Hazare: Yes, it should be done. Because it is not essential for our bodies. Food is essential, alcohol is not.
Sreenivasan Jain: Alcohol is different, it is for pleasure...
Anna Hazare: It is destructive.Perhaps because of his Army bakcground, he served from 1963 to 1975, Anna's approach to Gandhian non -violence has been ambigous.
Like his views on hanging corrupt politicians, a view he has been asked to tone down, but still holds.
Sreenivasan Jain: Annaji, one problem is that people believe that we are not a very disciplined country. There is a lack of discipline in everything. You have been very adamant that discipline must be enforced at all costs. Do you think this is one of our weaknesses?
Anna Hazare: In our country because of the Army's discipline we still have something left. If they weren't disciplined then by now Pakistan would have entered our country. Discipline is necessary.
Sreenivasan Jain: Army teaches discipline.
Anna Hazare: Yes. But you shouldn't do it with force. You shouldn't pressurize people to be disciplined. Discipline here should be brought about through educating people and spreading awareness, not through strictness. The case at the border is different.
Sreenivasan Jain: The strong stand we take against Pakistan is a different matter?
Anna Hazare: That is a different matter. What we have to do during war is a separate matter. Here bringing in education and awareness is important. Unless you make a strict law, the corruption won't stop. The law has to be tough. There are corrupt people because the laws are not strict. Even after 65 years they have not managed to make a tough law.
Sreenivasan Jain: You had once said that sometimes you feel they should be hanged.
Anna Hazare: I felt that way when I used to see how difficult it is for poor people to survive. Then I would feel these people should be hanged at crossroads.
Sreenivasan Jain: Whether it is politicians or others?
Anna Hazare: But now our position has changed. Everyone feels hanging is not correct as I follow Gandhi and also mention hanging. So now maybe not hanging.
Sreenivasan Jain: But you do feel sometimes that they should be hanged?
Anna Hazare: Yes.Discipline, fear, punishment: are they necessary to enforce social change? Professor P. Jogdand, Head of Department of Sociology at the Mumbai University says, "This is not the way to bring about social change.
You need to change the mentality of the people."
Retired IAS officer, Arun Bhatia concurs, "It's a wrong thing. You don't take the whip and say now don't drink."
And yet, at this school run by Anna's trust, we meet academically weak students, or problem students from all over Maharashtra who are given admission.
One of the kid's tells us, "At home I did not concentrate on my studies and was always playing. I have improved a lot after coming here."
* Another says, "Earlier I used to score very low. Now after 4 years here, with their guidance I get better marks."
The emphasis is yet again on discipline and occassionally punishment.
The school principal, Kale Anna Saheb says, "No matter how mischievous the child, after one month in our program he gets reformed."
On the use of harsh means to enforce discipline he says, "He try and explain things to him nicely. If he doesn't understand then we make him put a trunk on his head and run around the ground."
Anna says he is not rigid about enforcing all social norms. For instance, he had discouraged cable TV in the village.
Today there is no such restriction, but Anna cautions against the negative influence of television.
Sreenivasan Jain: Are religious values also important then?
Anna Hazare: Religion is important. But just wearing a garland or holding sacred beads in your hand or putting a tikka is not being religious. All faiths, leaders of all faiths say that helping the poor is equal to serving God. If you want to find God, then in addition to looking for him inside the 4 walls of a temple, a mosque, a church or a gurudwara, you must also see your village and your country as a temple. And by serving people, you are serving God.
Sreenivasan Jain: Now you stay in a temple, so people attribute a religious aspect to you, that you represent a particular region...is that the case?
Anna Hazare: I live in a temple, I wear a mala but I don't have time to recite verses or pray.
Sreenivasan Jain: You are so busy...
Anna Hazare: By just closing your eyes and praying nothing is going to happen. To serve those who are unhappy, who are suffering, that is actually serving God. That is the kind of prayer that I do.
Sreenivasan Jain: People of other faiths like Muslims and Christians look at you and wonder if there is space for them also in this revolution of yours?
Anna Hazare: It is for everyone. This temple of ours is open to everyone. It is open to people from all faiths, from all walks of life, whether they are Muslim, Christian...anybody.
Sreenivasan Jain: What you are saying is right. But when the RSS said that they support you then people got worried. Is it like that?
Anna Hazare: What RSS? In front of God all are equal, whether it is the Koran, the Guru Granth Sahib, the Bible or the Geeta all follow the principle of humanity
Sreenivasan Jain: But there are those who do not follow this belief. Some believe that the RSS is one of those who do not follow this principle, that they encourage the divisions in society. What do you feel?
Anna Hazare: True. That is why I stay away from them.
Sreenivasan Jain: You stay away?
Anna Hazare: We must think of all people as one. And I don't agree with those who try to encourage differences amongst people. All of us together have to build this nation.
Sreenivasan Jain: Do you believe this group, the RSS, instigates differences in society?
Anna Hazare: I don't say this about them. I don't believe it is right to blame anyone. It is a free country. Everyone has rights. Everyone can behave the way they want to. So who am I to stop them? Are the anna haxare contraditcitions getting magnified under the constant media focus?
At the Ralegan temple which he has made his home Anna receives local politicians, whose association predates the Jan Lokpal campaign.
The local Shiv Sena MLA, Vijay Auti tells us that in Maharashtra's 2009 assembly election he got a letter of support from Anna, which played a key role in his victory, "Wherever Annaji goes, he tells everyone to see the work done by our MLA. He also supported me during the elections, in writing as well."
Anna today says he is politically neutral and will not endorse anybody, only campaign against those who oppose the Lokpal Bill.
Anna Hazare: We will ask the people why they are voting for them? When these people are against the anti-corruption law of Jan Lokpal, why are you voting for them?
Sreenivasan Jain: Whether it is the BJP or Congress?
Anna Hazare: Whoever it is. I will go around the country.
And yet the presence of the Shiv Sena MLA suggests the subtle distinctions between the Anna of Ralegan and the Anna of the national stage: are there really two - or many Anna Hazare's?
Pushpa Bhave says, "He has gained in his self confidence, which wasn't there in the beginning. But maybe he feels now that his word should be taken up by everybody. That doesn't happen in a democracy, one must understand."
Anna says there is no distinction, that he is being misreptesented by the media, and that is why he has taken up blogging to talk directly to his followers. And yet he seems to break his own restrictions and speak to the media crews that are now permanently camped in Ralegan.
Like when asked about the Sharad Pawar slapping incident, he at first seemed to make light of it saying, "Ek hi maara?" (Only one slap?)
Then after a call from Delhi from his team members who alerted him to the strong dissaproval, he quickly clarified his position, "I disapprove of the attack. The attack on Pawar was undemocratic. It is wrong to express anger in this manner."
So is Anna, like any human being, a man of contradictions which under continuous media presence get magnified?
Perhaps that is why it maybe as much a mistake to use terms like fascist to describe his methods as it is to package him as a modern day Gandhi.
Anna himself is realistic about his limitations.
Anna Hazare: You can't compare me to Gandhi. His thoughts and ideals were much higher and very deep. I have hardly done anything in comparison."
Instead he says don't doubt my commitment to fight corruption - by any means necessary.
Anna Hazare: When I was thinking of these questions I realised that nobody can escape death and everyone will die empty hand. One didn't bring anything and won't take back anything, then what is the point of life in the middle. That is why I thought I should commit suicide.
Sreenivasan Jain: Then?
Anna Hazare: When I read Vivekananda's book, then I realised that humans got life to serve others. Service of the nation and society. What is the benefit? There is pleasure in service.
Sreenivasan Jain: And then your feelings changed?
Anna Hazare: Yes and then my thoughts on suicide changed and then I decided to dedicate my life in service of the nation and people.
Sreenivasan Jain: Thanks very much for talking to us. All the very best for your movement.
(Inputs and photos: Niha Masih)