We discuss an idea which seems self-evident, but after 25 years is it an idea whose time has still not come, given the huge controversy that's broken out about how to rehabilitate Kashmiri Pandits in the valley, their homeland. Amid all the sound and fury, are we losing the sanity needed for calm discourse and solutions? Are valley politicians giving in to the separatist blackmail? Joining The NDTV Dialogues for more on this are PDP's Muzaffar Hussain Baig, former Deputy Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir; Heena Shafi Bhat of the BJP; Dr Sameer Kaul, cancer specialist and a political analyst; Dr Amitabh Mattoo, a well-known academic, and a resident of Srinagar currently; and actor Anupam Kher, someone who has come out very strongly in the support of Kashmiri Pandits.
Following is the transcript of the show:
Anupam Kher: We, I think first of all, I think Kashmiri Hindus were very, very shocked. In the first 25 years, I think new generation has come up, the children have come up, they've understood, and we finally, I think, have a government which is talking constructively about doing something about Kashmiri Hindus. I, in fact recently before I called press conference, I was in Kashmir and I went to talk about the tourism in Kashmir because I think there was a problem of floods happening again. So I was called by Mr Mufti and he said that if you can visit, so I went all over the place and I was very thrilled, the kind of atmosphere that I saw over there. When it came to the kind of a place for Kashmir Hindus, I felt that it's much better to have a smart city kind of a place where they will feel secure. There was a point, which came, that why don't they come and merge with the majority, they should come and live in their own houses. There are two three practical problems in that. One is that there is no place left, which we used to reside in. There were these distress sales, people had to sell them and run away from there and I think, also the people did not leave that place under happy circumstances. They were forced to leave; they were threatened to leave; they were murdered; women were raped and an atmosphere was created on the 19th January 1990 that you have to leave the place. So I think there was no way that okay we will stay and we'll come back happily. Memories have no time table, they can come anytime, so if they come back and live in the same areas, its not possible for them to feel secure, it is not possible. It's not a question of being brave. Why should one try to be brave in his own homeland? And I did feel in a minority because we are refugees for the last 25 years in our own country. Our voices have not been heard. Technically, nothing practical has happened. We have heard various political parties, various governments talking very strongly, as if they are doing a favour to us and I thought it was important to sort of address the issue. And the moment one addressed the issue, you saw the next day there was a bandh called and then yesterday what happened with the rallies, I think it's a tragic thing, so I think government has to....
Anupam Kher: Well as far as these articles etc are concerned and people using this word, some people have an agenda and some people have nothing else to do but to see how to keep this topic alive by having some kind of an opposition. These words like 'ghettos' and words like merging with the crowd is, I think, all nonsense because we are the world's largest democracy and yet we've have been thrown of our own houses. These are to divert attention and I don't want to pay any attention to them. I think I will only urge the government go ahead and do something about it. There can be millions of possibilities. Where people are saying this should not happen, that should not happen, then 25 years ago that should not have happened. What was that? Mass massacre, there was mass exodus of Kashmiri Pandits, there was mass rape, murder. Now they are talking also about our people also died so many, I think death of one person is a tragedy and death of many people is statistics, I think somebody has said that and I think anybody who is a victim of terrorism or a victim of a problem, whether he is a Muslim or a Hindu or a Bengali or anybody else, I think it's the tragedy of human kind but to use these words are diversions. There are some political analysts, there are some political pandits or there are some pseudo-intellectuals who have nothing else to do but sort of say, lets coin new words and the media catches us those words and the discussion starts on those things
Anupam Kher: I'm not in a position to suggest anything but I think its time to bring out the human in them rather than stick to the politician part of it. I think its time to sort of rise above political parties and do something constructive because silence does not mean weakness. If these Kashmiri Hindus have been silent you must understand that they have also suffered a lot and do you know there is not a single person arrested for this? There is not a single case that has gone on. People who killed are roaming freely. So I'll request to them to rise above their parties and do something very constructive to these minorities.
Anupam Kher: It's a national shame. It's a national shame that they are dictating, 5 people are dictating, 10 people are dictating what the rest of the country should think, what the might of the rest of the country can do. But I'm sorry to say that the media is also played a very important role by every time taking cameras to these fixed people. I always say that if you ignore them for one year, their existence will diminish for the rest of our times.
Muzaffar Hussain Baig: Mr Kher adab. Believe me when I heard yesterday that you would be participating in this debate, I not only agreed but I was very excited. I have never met you but I do know that the first time Mufti Sahab went to Bombay in 2003, you were there. He told me you were in the audience and when Mufti Sahab was talking about the development, progress, peace, about Jammu and Kashmir, you did raise the issue of Kashmiri Pandits. And when he came back, he told me that he was speechless, I don't know but this is what he told me. And I asked why you were speechless? He said I was speechless because I have never felt closer to Muslims than Pandits, he said for me Muslim is Pandit savy is the same. But I was speechless as a matter of fact, even though thousands of innocent Muslims were massacred, yet Pandits, by virtue of having to leave Kashmir by force, by humiliation, by intimidation is a situation that I could not answer, that I was speechless. This is what he said. As far as I know Mufti Sahab, give him some time. I still believe that he seriously does something about this tragedy. This is no favour. If somebody says it is favour from Pandits or assorted community then they are myopic. So far political will is concerned, I am sure we will be able to generate that political will. But we will need the blessing of people like you, your active participation that we have a civil society; a Kashmiri Pandit civil society that is to be prepared; a Muslim civil society that is to be prepared. Politicians on their own neither have the courage I am sorry to say, nor do they have the resources. To solve this great problem, it can be solved only with the participation of all Indian's, especially Kashmiri Pandits and Kashmiri Muslims
NDTV: Anupam Kher, thank you. Dr Kaul if you can come in because you have actually left the PDP. You had left because you were worried because it had become the ultra right agenda, perhaps a compromise in identities. Are you confident that this government can actually deliver with that ultra-right agenda?
Samir Kaul: I just felt that, although it seems that opposites attract and one would hope in the real sense that happens. Because the two parties which form the collision in J&K today are opposites in mandate, in ideology, in composition and when these 2 come together, although it looks as if there is a possibility that they can override what couldn't have been overridden earlier, but a lot depends whether all that can actually happens. One would hope that they get together and rise above the mundane and particularly above political brinkmanship. There is in our state, unfortunately, an element of overdose of politics. I think this country, why only this country, entire region suffers from an overdose of politics. If you just scan your channels, scan the newspaper and scan your everyday lives there isn't a part of your life, which is left untouched. Particularly in Jammu and Kashmir, being a sort of a conflict area, there is this element of over-dosage of politics and there is political brinkmanship at all levels and quarters. Now this issue, although politics has a role, but positive politics has a role, some conviction has a role
NDTV: Do you think Mufti Sahab will manage that?
Dr. Kaul: I hope that he does. For the time being, like I said one does not live by bread alone, one lives by politics, one lives by sociology, one lives by finance at all levels and to make this whole thing comprehensive, not just a smart city because that sounds a good word, but it should have more than that because it talks reintegration of human beings, living is just one part of it.
NDTV: You are saying smart cities equal ghetto?
Samir Kaul: Well, it is a more fashionable way of saying it and it is one of the narratives. For instance for the Pundit's Kashmir growth, what have they been asking for? They have been asking for a separate homeland and you may call the homeland as a smart city, you may call it a ghetto. You have some thing like the Jagti, which the previous government combined has put in place. It is an exercise of one community living together at one place without a mixture and go and look at it
NDTV: Heena Bhatt, what Anupam Kher said, as a young Valley politician would you agree with him? Do you feel sometimes frustrated with him how much valley politics are dominated by views, perhaps that have no place in India today, forget Kashmir?
Heena Bhat: Definitely, as a youngster I really want Kashmiri Pandits and Muslims to rise above the religion and behave like humans on every issue not only on the Kashmiri Pandit issue, but about the Kashmir issue also. We really need to be humans first then to that we are a Muslim or a Kashmiri Pandit. As Mr Anupam Kher said we really need to start this process by punishing those people who were involved in the killings of Kashmiri Pandits, the majority who were known people. As he said it's a status there. You know one or more, then that we really need to get them first with that. As I have talked to a lot of Kashmiri Pandits during my campaign also and this was the first thing they also always demanded. They were like, what will happen? I always used to ask them what do you want? You know nobody has asked what they want. It is always like the different groups coming up, representing Kashmiri Pandits
NDTV: In your election there was a hope, I am sure your camp must have felt that Kashmiri Pandits may have provided you the margin needed for you to get victory. Do you think you being with the BJP actually worked against you in the rally?
Heena Bhat:No it was always that political thing coming up like the Kashmir Pandits will vote for BJP and they are banking on the Kashmiri Pandit votes. No, it was never like that. It was on the picture only not in practice
NDTV: Muzaffar Hussain Baig Sahab, why is it we saw Anupam Kher very emotionally saying that I am a minority and I am speaking out today because I'm a victim whose voice no one listens to? In that sense when there seems to be some movement after the meeting with the Chief Minister and the Home Minister, there was a press release issued. Suddenly it's all at a standstill after some separatist protest. Why is that? Has the government given in, as I said in my introduction, to blackmail from separatist leaders, many of whom were prime in causing Kashmiri Pandits to leave the valley in the first place?
Muzaffar Hussain Baig: If you don't mind, I'll first of all tell you that the word 'exodus' is not appropriate in case of Kashmiri Pandits.
NDTV: It's politically loaded in a sense, you are saying?
Muzaffar Hussain Baig: Exodus was the Jewish struggle to be free of the Egyptian pharaohs and go to their land. So that was sort of freedom, exodus was an act of freedom. In Kashmir, Kashmiris did not leave Kashmir as an act of freedom, in fact some people call it ethnic cleansing, some people call it Muslim fundamentalism or whatever you see it. But it was more tragic than perhaps any example that I can find in history; Jews were subjected to tremendous brutality by Hitler and yet they were enough in number and resources to not only reestablish their identity but flourish all over the world. Now here what we have at stake is not just the career of a few Kashmiri Pandits. I have said it in more than a hundred speeches, even in areas where there is no Kashmiri Pandit, no Sikh. I have said that Jammu and Kashmir, because of unfortunate deportation of the country, the kind of leadership that we had throughout this period, and then the emergence of this fundamentalism, is most unfortunate. I think that as an ethnic humanity, they are endangered. And what bothers me is that in Amazon, a certain kind of monkey was endangered, and I'm told that three billion dollars were collected, or donated, to take those monkeys and then you know increase their number and then send them back to Amazon. That's the kind of concern one has about endangered species. Here is an endangered species, a distinct civilisation, distinct philosophy which believes in universalism, slightly different from Vedanta, which has very, very rich literature, it is endangered and we take it as few numbers. How many Pandits? Three lakh Pandits, so what? They can neither make a government nor unmake a government.
NDTV: That's an interesting philosophical answer. Though that analogy I have to say, of the Amazon monkey, which maybe some may even object to, but that's philosophy.
Muzaffar Hussain Baig: No I'm saying that human concern, human concern must be universal.
NDTV: No but my point is that Sir...
Muzaffar Hussain Baig: It must be universal. Why should it not be there for Kashmiri Pandits?
NDTV: I'm going to bring in Heena Bhat on that point because we've seen schemes announced in earlier governments, which had offered jobs in some form, no Pandits actually came forward to even take up those schemes. But what happened, the controversies sparked off is when the BJP, the Home Minister issued a press release saying looking at these composite townships, and you've seen protests in Kashmir, you've even had the Chief Minister stand up in the Assembly and say we don't want Israel like settlements. Is the rhetoric; is the language, why is it that you feel that politicians in the valley are succumbing to what people say is separatist blackmail?
Heena Bhat: See I don't want to get the separatist into this.
NDTV: But they seem to have led the agenda on this.
Heena Bhat: But the most important person, what we are discussing right now, is the Kashmiri displaced people. Have we really talked to them? Have we even asked them what they want? This most important thing, we are nobody; no party; no government; no political party or the separatist from Kashmir can decide what they want. Do they really want to come back? How do they want to come back? It's not only the people in city, or there are like people who have left their villages, their farms, their houses, and they have just shifted to Jammu and other places. Are they ready to shift back in their houses, are they secure there? First of all they have a threat again. Once they shift back are they secure there? As Dr Kaul said it's not about the four walls, we'll make a community, we'll make a camp, they will be shifted from one camp to another camp.
Sameer Kaul: It's not about the separatists or the hawks or this one or that one, it's about human insecurities. Every Kashmiri Muslim probably today feels that a Kashmiri Pandit is an Indian agent and a saboteur and therefore in these camps what will happen is, an anti people movement and reporting to India. Similarly every Kashmiri Pandit feels that my neighbour, if I settle in these colonies again, is going to be somebody who is going to be pro Pakistani, and that fear, and that they'll collaborate with the terrorists and therefore drive me out again. These are insecurities and that is why I feel there needs to be intense education first and getting over the past. I propose that a Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which unbiasedly finds out and goes into what really happened at the time of this upheaval. So that everybody knows that there was no one control in that situation, it was multi factorial, and there were things that could not be helped. They will talk to each other, get over, relate tales of woe, understand each other and the sourness will go away because you can't preempt these things. It has to have its own process. If you've got to arrive at a robust, just, a long lasting solution, then you have to go about it step by step, it is too sensitive a matter.
NDTV: And we've seen it across the world that these processes have begun, whether it's the reunification of Germany, whether it's in South Africa, so why not in Kashmir? Professor Mattoo come in here because its interesting what Dr Kaul just said, because every time we see an election in Jammu and Kashmir, we see high turnouts, we see the Indian festival of democracy as it were, a reaffirmation that ordinary people do very much feel a part of India. Yet we see the same old lines being drawn when it comes to protests or when it comes to agent of India etc. They don't seem to add up because on one hand, the people of Jammu and Kashmir, the valley, seem to very strongly have reaffirmed their faith in Indian democracy. Are these fears very real on the ground? Your family is living in Srinagar still, you are living in Srinagar, what would you say as somebody who is there? And when you hear this talk about separate townships or smart cities, as Anupam Kher has proposed for Kashmiri Pandits, to bring in the talent from around the country where Kashmiri Pandits flourished back to the valley?
Amitabh Mattoo: Let me begin by saying Sonia that the tragedy of the Kashmiri Pandits, and I call it internal displacement because no one leaves out of their free will or migrates on a seasonal pattern, is a tragedy, not just for the community but for Kashmir, because what was lost was a syncretic culture. And I think the return of Kashmiri Pandits with dignity and honour will be an important marker for sustainable peace in J&K. Now everyone on your panel has presented and perhaps rightly so, if you look at it in the short term, a rather gloomy view of the return of the Pandits. I see in this crisis of political sloganeering and high-pitched slogans, an opportunity. I feel, in fact I would like to challenge your original statement that the idea of the return of Kashmiri Pandits has not come. I believe the idea of the return of Kashmiri Pandits has indeed come. And I say this because of what has been happening. For the first time you have had a debate, you've had a discussion, you've had engagement, you've had political parties actually talk about the return of the Pandits and lets not forget, there is no one, no one across the political spectrum in Jammu and Kashmir, from the militants to the separatists, who have not said, even if its just for sounding reasonable, that they don't want the Kashmiri Pandits to return with dignity and honour. What can and should be done? One way is as Dr Kaul pointed out, is to go back and try and find out what happened. That, unless there is a larger process, and that would include really an India Pakistan reconciliation commission, really contributes to any positive growth. Because when you look back, you sometimes open the wounds that cannot be healed unless people are willing to accept guilt and move beyond that. On the other hand, I think what you need to do is move forward. How do you get the Kashmiri Pandits to return with dignity and honour? I feel that you need a three level parallel process. You need civil societies of the Kashmiri Pandits and the Kashmiri Muslims talking to each other and in contrast to the absolutist views that are often aired in the media, I hear moderate voices willing to enter into a dialogue, whether if its amongst the Kashmiri Pandits or whether it is amongst the Kashmiri Muslims, I see it everyday in the valley, in Jammu, in Delhi. I see it when I travel to the temple of Roop Bhawani, who is the 16th century reincarnation of Goddess Sharada; the temple is managed by Gulam Ahmad Kehli all alone with no support and help and yet he is most welcoming, I mean that is an anecdotal example. Similarly, Kashmiri Pandits who reached out to the Muslims from Srinagar who were flooded, why do we look at a picture through the eyes, through the spectacles of just political parties and extremists views? Look at the larger picture. Secondly, beyond the civil society dialogue I would say, then you need the political parties perhaps, to adopt, accept and agree on an agenda essentially created through the dialogue by civil society, but also act parallely. And finally the government and the state, both at the union and at the state level, to facilitate whatever arrangement is arrived at. I think its too early to talk about what is the way forward in terms of is it settlements, is it reintegration? I think what you need to begin is a dialogue which will contribute to a process of reconciliation. There is no doubt in my mind that Kashmiri Pandist have, must, should return to Kashmir and that this is a time when we can make this happen. If we rise above our partisan politics or how to try to blame each other, let us together create that condition when inclusiveness can flourish in Kashmir. I grew up in Kashmir when Kashmiriyat and composite culture was not a slogan. It was something that I lived out everyday in schools, in my neighbourhood, at home. So I would like my daughters to come back from Australia to the kind of Kashmir that I lived in.
NDTV: In fact, Baig Sahab just to ask you on that point, some would have said that the BJP-PDP government, its a historic turn to actually do this because you are bringing together two ideological opposites, so maybe then you'll find some agreement, yet there was back to the same old political rhetoric and that was really the issue. When Mufti Sahab stood up in the Assembly and made that point that we don't want Israel type settlements in Jammu and Kashmir, it plays into a political fear that some would say is hyped up in the valley, that you know this is about changing the demographic profile, this is about changing the valley. Why couldn't Mufti Sahab have stood up and said I welcome them back, this is how we'll do it? Is there a mismatch between the BJP and the Chief Minister on this? Because the Home Minister's press release was very different from what Mufti Sahab said.
Muzaffar Hussain Baig: One is that ever since this government has formed, you know I initiated this idea that there should be a BJP-PDP government. I thought that this would be a great historical opportunity. A Muslim majority state joining hands with a Hindu dominated party and this is a great challenge but also an opportunity because this would be a test tube laboratory. To what extent these people have formulated a carbon minimum program is debatable. What is their capacity, their commitment, BJP and PDP, will be seen in due course of time. During the last month or so there have been controversies, mostly verbal controversies. If you see the essence of what Mufti Sahab says, then you can understand him better. Now he is in under tremendous pressure. There is not really any politically experienced person to support him. There are all new people, whether BJP or PDP. I think that, no I am here in, I think that first of all let me apologise if I have given you a wrong impression. When I said that human beings are so concerned about living species, we should be thousand times more concerned about an ethnic humanity. But I think the first thing I agree with all the three speakers is, I believe, that there are more than 5 dozen Kashmiri Pandit organisations, I have a list, I have not come across any two Pandit organisations who have similarity of, as to how to go back to Kashmir, everybody wants to go to Kashmir. Now it has been said about the Jews, that if there are 11 Jews then there are 12 point of views. Highly argumentative and highly intellectual people, do have the habit of the, you know, finding difficulty to come on the consensus, they are very argumentative and intellectually motivated people but politics is the art of the possible, it has been said, may I first of all....
NDTV: I just want to ask, why this Jewish Kashmiri Pandits' comparison? In every way their sentiments from Jewish Kashmiri Pandits...
Muzaffar Hussain Baig: Most intelligent race, a more perspective people, most misunderstood. I am not talking about the Zionist, God forbids, I am talking about the normal Jews.
Sameer Kaul: Regarding to this, that if I wanted to address Amitabh back to now, I would call him Amitabh Jew, there is commonality of language also.
Muzaffar Hussain Baig: May I get back to the subject. First of all I endorse the view that let us have some sort of consensus first of all amongst the Hindu organizations. What are we? We are all more or less mainstream people, aren't we? The Kashmiri Pandits have their organizations, then Kashmir civil society, they must get together, government of India, government of Kashmir, it should be done in a very subtle and sophisticated manner, it shouldn't be a public controversy. So far Hurriyat Conference is concerned I am bewildered, because I saw a photograph last year when Kashmir Pandits called on Gilani Sahab, he cried for them, "oh my heart is bleeding for you". I do not know what happened to Gilani Sahab, what happened to Malik, what has happened to Shabir Shah? Because if you talk to them, one to one, everyone wants Kashmir Pandits or they handle the pressure of the militants, which is the concern... that is the real concern. Are they under the fundamental people who have one vision of life everywhere and entire Muslim world suffers from that kind of decline?
NDTV: I am going to have to come, want to ask Dr Kaul, he is also the doctor for Mr Gilani, so do you believe...
Muzaffar Hussain Baig: What is the most striking and potentially constructive feature of Kashmir Pandits is their tradition of education and literature, I don't want to name the gentleman who is here, I don't want to, he is participating in the debate. Many years ago we discussed and we thought why not to utilise the strongest point that the Kashmiri's have, the strong yearning, why not to have a university, huge big university where Shaivism, technology, digital science, literature, Kashmir crafts, a huge university spread that will be a huge town by itself? And I have also put a question to the Prime Minister which will come up during the present session, I have that question with me, that will the government of India and government of Jammu and Kashmir consider setting up a university in the name of Lal Ded? Lal Ded was a Pandit woman who was the greatest saint and a Sufi and her disciple who was the greatest Muslim saint over there. A university in their name and Kashmiri Pandits from all over the world will flock to it. Now Kashmiri Pandits will flock to it because they want to benefit from the intellectual wealth that the Kashmiri Pandits can provide. This by itself can become a town. Now here there will be a western cooperative interest between Muslims and Hindus, its not just slogans for which Kashmiri Pandits will come back. Why will a scientist come back from Europe? Why will a successful doctor come back from Germany? We have to create a climate in Kashmir where they will think it is worth their while contributing to the history to coming generation. It is not just by giving a few jobs here and there. Of couse I deny your allegation that Kashmiri Pandits didn't deny the jobs, they have accepted the jobs. There are five colonies, I will not name the colonies because I don't want them to hit. Kashmiri Pandits who got the jobs, they are living in Kashmir in very safe colonies, so I think that we should start with universities, hospitals, engineering institutes, art and craft institutes where Kashmiri Pandits will come and Muslims will flock and they will themselves become habitation.
NDTV: You've cleverly not really answered my question on the Chief Minister, but I think that's a very interesting vision. But Prof Mattoo, come in, you wanted to, go ahead Prof Mattoo.
Amitabh Mattoo: Two things, first of all I think you know because of the intense media scrutiny, that everyone in the public life is today sound bytes become more important than the real substance. So while this government is initially represented, what might be seemed as polarising sentiments from Jammu and Kashmir I think it worked reasonably well at other circumstances. Remember its just two months since they took office, so lets just give time for these divergent aspirations to reconcile themselves in a purposeful government. Secondly, what you need to address fundamentally is the way in which the great divide between the Pandits and the Muslim from Kashmir can be divided? Quite clearly when the Muslims began to understand and empathise with the suffering of the Kashmiri Pandits who left, like Baig Sahab did today, and the circumstances under which they have to leave and when the Pandits realised that Muslims in the valley have suffered tremendously, have gone through multiple traumas, that has to be basis of reconciliation. The Kashmiri Pandit has, for one second, to put himself in the shoes of the Kashmiri Muslim and the Kashmiri Muslim, even for a nano second, has to put himself in the shoes of a Kashmiri Pandit. Once you do that you will have a new dawn in the beginning in which return will not become a great vision.
NDTV: But in fact Dr Kaul you faced that in the PDP as well, many asked how could you join the PDP as a Kashmiri Pandit?
Sameer Kaul: I completely, the kind of barbs I have tolerated, ultra right, ultra left, whatever you want to call them for 4 years when I was the National spokesperson, had I not believed in this shared common ancestry and the common backbone that we all come from and 5000 of years of history will bear me out, that there been many migrations and yet Kashmiri Pandits have kept coming back and stayed on and we continue to be there even now. That is exactly why hearing each other views, empathising with each other is what is going to happen through truth and reconciliation. And no Dr Mattoo, psychological wounds are healed and don't worry about opening those wounds, because that is the only way you can heal those cracks and scars in your mind. You revisit them. You face them. You get on top of prejudices. That is when these distorted versions for the same thing fractious opinions from various communities, led by disparaged groups and leaders, are going to cease. Please don't jump into doing things immediately. Create a background for it.
NDTV: I think from a medical perspective as well, who would agree on that actually shining the light on the wounds. But Dr Kaul, I just want to ask you, the reference that I made, you in fact are the doctor to Gilani as well, did you feel at that time, when you were, as a Kashmiri Pandit, when you were treating him and there's been a whole anger as it were, that people say that the same people who drove you out, the people who want loudspeakers, at that time saying that Kashmiri Pandits must leave, these are the same people who dominate, some would say, maybe too much importance is given to them, but they are the one who seem to be setting the rules for return. Do you feel that's what a clear message needs to go out, you are not with the PDP anymore, but is, are you optimistic that the new government with the extremes can actually worked that out?
Sameer Kaul: Well let me just clarify the first thing first. I have known Gilani Sahab now for a close to 30 years as his doctor and I can say known him intimately enough as a human being and as a person. I have not agreed with his political philosophy one bit nor has he ever insisted that I do so. But as a human being I have a highest of regard for him. Much as I was misunderstood by my community and named Samad Kaul at time, or other things at times, but fortunately it didn't distract me for what my main purpose in life was. I think he voices what common people in Kashmir generally feel.
NDTV: Do you think so?
Sameer Kaul: Of course, had that not been so across the board, that kind of, it is all about ignorance, its common people who need to visit the pass, clear their misgivings, leads about insecurities. The Kashmiri Muslim feels insecure about the so-called invasion by the Kashmiri Pandit in this colony or in a mixed colony or the other form of living. The Kashmiri Pandit feels that if he's in a mixed colony then he is next to an enemy who might kill him. These are misgivings, these are basically human insecurities, it doesn't matter which group.
NDTV: But Prof Mattoo is in mixed colony, his family is in mixed colony.
Sameer Kaul: Yes but that there are only few of us, that is only few of us,
Muzaffar Hussain Baig: Most of the Kashiris don't think that the Pandits will be spies. Let me clarify, I live in Kashmir, there is a certain group of economic vested interest people, who are in lead with the international elements, they suppress this. 90% of Kashmiris do not fear the return of Kashmiri Pandits at all and I have a faith in this that if we proceed...
NDTV: Why can a minority then make sure that if they are not back yet; let me get Heena Bhat Baig Sahab because she is listening patiently, Heena Bhat the point he talked about what, how people called him names when he joined PDP, you may have face some of the same issues when you joined the BJP?
Heena Bhat: Worse than that.
NDTV: Worse than that. So when you see what happens, for the instances, when the Home Minister issues the press release and said the composite townships for which even the Chief Minister distanced himself from, do you find it extremely difficult to change those misconceptions? Do you accept that among your generation, which may have grown up very young when the Pandits actually left, that there's a feeling that why we do we need to bring them back? We have found this way, why should things change again, do you think that people want to keep things as status quo?
Heena Bhat: No, I should go 20-25 years back when it really started. I was in 6th standard when we also shifted to Delhi. My father at that time was the Member of Parliament. The whole of Kashmir was fire. When Kashmiri Pandits were leaving we were also because of the security, because of the kidnapping of Mufti Sahab's daughter at the same time, everything was like on fire. When Kashmiri Muslims were under threat, definitely Kashmiri Pandits were under threat. We came back like okay, fine. We accept that we are going back to Kashmiri Muslims, our back home. Lots of Kashmiri Pandits have also returned, but Dr Kaul also said scars are there. You cannot jump to the conclusions. Lets shift and think. See I tell you something, lots of people which were called at that time mukhbir, the informers and that time 90% Kashmiris, every house two people, if they had two sons, one was across the border and one used to be in valley and they used to call Kashmiri Pandits as mukhbirs. That's what I have been, you know growing up and listening to the stories and myself also realising this, so this thing actually started, if Baig Sahab would agree, it started from the informers that Kashmiri Pandits would be informers, that Kashmiri Muslims are into the process of militancy we would call or whatever, so it started from that.
NDTV: So stereotypes in both sides that if he is a Muslim, oh he must be a terrorist and if he's a Pandit he must be an informer.
Heena Bhat: Indian and a Pakistani, we need to really clear these things first, that as Baig Sahab also said we don't have to discriminate.
NDTV: Prof Mattoo, come back in. I have made that reference earlier that why suddenly this rare Palestine analogy being used so frequently in political discourse? This issue, also Anupam Kher is saying why not a disparate smart city for Kashmiri Pandits? Baig Sahab is saying why not Kashmiri universities, university town and an academic like you would be very useful perhaps in something like that? But this issue of separate, how do you assimilate? Do you think that those are valid concerns? I made the point that you and your family are of course living in Srinagar. Do you think those are valid concerns and do you think this whole Israel analogy is a bit disturbing?
Amitabh Mattoo: I think anyone who uses the Middle East as an analogy, should do it more wisely because that is historically rooted in the most inflamed passions. So I think we have to be careful about that. But you know as I said, I think the worst thing that one can do is to try and work out as a quick fix, the way for the Kashmiri Pandits to return with honour and dignity because no matter what I say on this programme, there will be someone will refute and dismiss that idea. I think that's why its important for a dialogue in civil society and Dr Kaul, as I said, there are obviously virtues and truth in the reconciliation commission. But having actually sat as an observer in many of these commissions, I know they work best when there is a straightforward person who is guilty and there is a victim. But when there are multiple interpretations of truth, there is no Afrikaner, there is no Black African, where who is guilty, and who is the victim can be proven and then there can be forgiveness and acceptance. You have on both sides multiple interpretations of what happened and who suffered more. That's why I think a dialogue and reconciliation organic process is the fundamental way to begin, because unless you involve people beyond governments and beyond political parties, in the first instance you will not really create the condition, because these are the people who have to return. And as I said, the agreement should flow out of that dialogue rather than say a smart city or a separate township or an integrated neighbourhood. Clearly there has to be reconciliation before you can even envisage what can happen. And as I said mark my words, I think this crisis is an opportunity, a huge opportunity where we can ensure the dignified return of the Pandits.
Muzaffar Hussain Baig: I agree on this channel there is an opportunity, but may I very, very humbly request you, why don't we make an attempt first of all to have an interaction amongst the various Pandit groups? I can organise the civil society in Kashmir. I can take that responsibility from all regions and all kinds, and if we could have a dialogue between Kashmiri Pandits, civil society and Kashmiris, we could come up with a formula and we'll sell that formula. We have to go from village to village, house to house, we have to mobilise public opinion. We can't just sit here, or make a speech in an Assembly or in a Parliament, we have to do real hard work. It is possible that this dream of getting Kashmiri Pandits back, not all of them but most of them, I think this is a dream worth fighting for, I think it is a dream which is achievable.
NDTV: We have to end The Dialogues, but it has been a fascinating conversation, thank you all very much. As I said there are differences, it's what makes this a real dialogue. Baig Sahab, Heena Bhat, Dr Kaul, Professor Mattoo thank you all for joining me on the show. Thank you.
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