Lokpal Bill debate in Rajya Sabha

Dec 30, 2011 01:51 (IST)

Chairman of the House Hamid Ansari said, "There appears to be a desire to outshout each other. There appears to be a total impasse." And then came the final blow for the opposition. "The House cannot be conducted like this." The House was adjourned sine die.

Dec 30, 2011 01:50 (IST)

The BJP's Arun Jaitley accuses Govt of running away from the vote.

Dec 30, 2011 01:50 (IST)

Parliamentary Affairs Minister Pawan Bansal said at 11.45 pm that it is the government's prerogative to decide when the vote takes place.

Dec 30, 2011 01:49 (IST)

Rajya Sabha resumes, ruckus continues.

Dec 29, 2011 23:53 (IST)

House adjourned for 15 minutes after chaos.

Dec 29, 2011 23:53 (IST)

V Narayanasamy, Congress:

They say it is a weak bill, not strong, toothless. Confiscation of property before conviction is a path breaking process. Apart from this, the asset of the public servant will be seized.
The Leader of Opposition should remember that the bill was brought by the NDA government in August 2001. The bill went to Standing Committee and no step was taken by the NDA to bring an effective Lokpal. (At this point, Rajneeti Prasad of the RJD went up to Mr Narayanasamy's desk, snatched the bill from his hand and tore it.)

Dec 29, 2011 23:49 (IST)

Rajniti Prasad, Rashtriya Janata Dal:

Every member of the Rajya Sabha is a thief? This is not going to work.

Dec 29, 2011 23:48 (IST)

Ram Vilas Paswan, Lok Janshakti Party:

Everyone told you, Mr PM, not to take decision hurriedly
Why will the Lokpal investigate the PM after retirement? Our PM is our PM
Is he God? Threatens us that he would sit outside Sonia and Rahul Gandhi's house? It should not be brought under pressure.
Parliament is supreme. This is the message we should give across.

Dec 29, 2011 23:20 (IST)

Shobhana Bhartia, Nominated member:

The CBI Director should have a free hand in selecting his team.

Dec 29, 2011 19:25 (IST)

Rajiv Shukla, Congress:

The Lokpal Bill is very effective and very strong, notwithstanding the criticism that we have seen. All powers have been provided but there is an element of accountability as well.
There is a campaign which claims that only 10% politicians will come in the Lokpal's ambit. This is false propaganda.
We cannot alter the balance of power once the Lokpal comes into being. Laws are not made for a particular government or party, they stay on for decades.
What does one mean by a strong and effective Lokpal? An agency which is not accountable to anybody? We should ensure respect for those who are elected.

Dec 29, 2011 18:38 (IST)

Ram Jethmalani, BJP:

Corruption is not a discovery by Anna Hazare, it was discovered long ago. But he has brought out the consciousness of the public on the issue of corruption.
When you (V Narayansamy) want to introduce a bill, please make it as sweet as possible.
The people have made up their minds to throw out this government in the next election. Power corrupts, but the prospect of losing power corrupts absolutely.
The power of superintendence over the CBI should be transferred from the central government to the Lokpal to make it independent.
The Supreme Court has said that the government had done nothing to recover the black money stashed in foreign banks. The government is not serious about pursuing this matter. (Uproar)

Dec 29, 2011 18:15 (IST)

Manohar Joshi, Shiv Sena:

Main issue is being neglected and procedural issues are getting importance. I wanted people sitting here to make recommendations for removing corruption totally.
The decision that we take after discussions will be historic.
Treat this as an experiment. We have made our suggestions and amendments have been moved.
The Lokpal bill should have been unanimous .
Lokpal might become another centre of power in the country. The bill is made in such a way that the country may come in danger.
While creating Lokpal, it must be kept in mind that democracy must be kept untouched and Parliament should remain supreme.
We feel that Prime Minister should be brought under Lokpal with some conditions but judiciary should be kept out.
If needed, Lokpal should be removed through process of impeachment.
There are a number of clauses against the state government.
My party has decided to oppose the bill which has come.

Dec 29, 2011 17:34 (IST)

D Raja of CPI:

We support strong effective bill. But this bill lacks this strength
So we have moved several amendments for consideration
We had guts to attend public debate and say to activists that legislation is the business of Parliament
Corruption cannot be curbed by enacting mere legislation
Govt has agreed to reservation for Lokpal - or they can call it representation - for women, schedule caste and tribes. It is their due right

Dec 29, 2011 17:33 (IST)

Ram Gopal Yadav of Samajwadi Party:

We oppose the bill. It has been incorrect from start to finish
First you take steps to make someone a hero. Then you let supremacy of Parliament be almost usurped
As laws increased to curb graft, corruption has shot up
One who thinks Lokpal will route corruption is living in Fool's Paradise
A good man cannot get a party ticket if he doesn't have money
Lokpal cannot change these problems. Good people have to be respected in society
Ministers have no time for a good man. Corporates get audiences. This is the reality
Five-member selection panel for Lokpal - prima facie, it appears these are there to protect the interest of the government. The committee should include Leader of Opposition in Rajya Sabha.
Lokpal will become the "nana" (grandfather) of CBI. It will be misused by the government even more.
Chapter 3 is completely against federalism (refers to creation of Lokayuktas at state level). We want it dropped completely.
When our amendments come up, please press the green button and support us

Dec 29, 2011 17:33 (IST)

Sukhendu Sekhar Roy of Trinamool Congress:

Trinamool Congress opposes Lokpal Bill in Rajya Sabha with respect to provision on setting up of Lokayuktas
Bill seeks to encroach upon authority of states which we are opposed to
Bringing Lokayukta under bill may be unconstitutional. It is certainly anti-federal (quoting constitutional expert Rajiv Dhawan)
My leader has directed us to oppose this bill to the extent that it relates to Lokayukta
If image of Chief Minister is affected, image of the country is also affected
If Chief Minister is put on trial, his or her image is denigrated. Image of the country is also denigrated
On Aug 27, we discussed Lokpal bill. Suddenly and surprisingly, it became Lokpal and Lokayukta Bill. New nomenclature has been inserted
Being member state of United Nations, we know in certain cases we ratify international covenant on many issues. But does this enforce upon Government of India to evolve such a mechanism which will breach the federal principles of constitution of India?
We have moved so many amendments. We want those amendments to be accepted. Delete Part 3. Voice of dissent should also be listened
Entire nation is looking at us. We shall be answerable to our future generations
Request government to delete Chapter 3 in its entirety from its bill. With these words I oppose the bill to the extent I have stated

Dec 29, 2011 17:31 (IST)

Tiruchi Siva, DMK:

Corruption is a universal problem. It does not stay in India alone. We are the only state who fight for state autonomy and we are not in favour of this bill.
PM is brought under the Lokpal with safeguards, which we are not in favour of. We need to curb this as son as possible. Its a slow process. From DMK, I support the bill.

Dec 29, 2011 17:31 (IST)

Tariq Anwar, NCP:

When we can make amendments in the Constitution then why can't we do it in this bill?

Dec 29, 2011 17:14 (IST)

Pyarimohan Mohanpatra, BJD:

Let us make the selection process transparent. Please give CBI to Lokpal.
Uttarakhand and Bihar has had very strong Lokayukta bill. Let us change the course of history and honour federalism.

Dec 29, 2011 17:00 (IST)

Shivanand Tiwari of the JDU:

We should make a law so that the country remains united. This is a disease, worse than cancer, and we need to fight it.

We support the Lokpal only if you let the states function independently.

There is corruption because there is a huge difference in the status of the people. What kind of laws are prevalent in the country that a person's firm sinks due to losses but he continues to live big? This is also corruption.

With so much poverty in the country, will there be fair elections? We need to remove differences.

Dec 29, 2011 15:30 (IST)

Sitaram Yechury in Rajya Sabha

Maamla bahut gambhir hai (the matter at hand is very serious)
Kahin pe nigaahein, kahi pe nishaana (intentions and target are mismatched)
We had agreed on Citizen's Charter, lower bureaucracy and Lokayuktas for state in the discussion in August
We gave this assurance to the country
Do not enact law against interest of states
Can't tackle graft without including India Inc under review of Lokpal
Corporates fund elections
CBI should be freed from government control

Dec 29, 2011 15:28 (IST)

Lokpal Bill designed to destroy federal structure: Satish Chandra Misra

Dec 29, 2011 14:43 (IST)

Satish Chandra Misra of BSP:

This is not offering a mazboot (strong) Lokpal, it's offering a majboor (dependent) Lokpal
CBI has to be independent body and this is possible only when whoever is in power does not control it
Abhishek Manu Singhvi of the Congress said he cannot deny that the CBI has been misused
On reservations: Don't take minorities for granted
Lokpal Bill designed to destroy federal structure
CBI has been misused against Mayawati
We have taken vow. We cannot pass anything that is unconstitutional

Dec 29, 2011 13:57 (IST)

Dec 29, 2011 13:02 (IST)

Abhishek Manu Singhvi in Rajya Sabha

Would have invited Jaitley to help gift us a strong Lokpal as a birthday present. But BJP is parsimonious in giving birthday presents. So don't do it for our sake but join us in passing a Lokpal Bill for the sake of the nation. No use putting a string of conditionalities in your statements. No use saying I want to pass a strong effective bill after three months after referring it again to a committee, after further discussions. You are using conditionality as a pretext not to pass the Bill. If you don't want to pass the Bill, say so. Have the courage of your convictions.
On process of CBI and investigation, let's look at it seriously, not with the intent to ridicule. CBI is 70-year-old organization. Should birth of a Lokpal mean automatic destruction of every other institution? A 10-year-old CVC, a 70-year-old CBI?
You want one Lokpal, subsume CVC and CBI under Lokpal, move Citizen's Charter under Lokpal, allow Lokpal suo moto power, have prelim inquiry by Lokpal, actual investigation by Lokpal, prosecution by Lokpal. Thank God you did not say judgement must also come from Lokpal. You are creating a behemoth of unimaginable proportions. PM's office will look like pygmy in comparison.
You are creating breeding ground for corruption. You are making a body outside the whole system, with inherent conflict of interest. Our conception is of checks and balances. Of equilibrium between holy trinity of CBI, CVC and Lokpal. That is how our Constitution is framed. This bill abolishes need for prior sanction for investigation against govt servants. We have said for 60 years we should have some difference between prosecution and investigation. This separation is created by the bill.
Which body does not offer slight majority for government in selection? Now we must create a law where government will be in minority in selection.
BJP says administrative control of CBI must be given to Lokpal. I hope nobody thinks CAG or CVC are sarkari bodies. They are independent in action in the Constitution. They have controlling authorities in different ministries. But just to earn a few brownie points, or because of state elections, you want to alter the structure so administrative authority does not lie anywhere. The minister in question replies to questions, seeks funding for these bodies.
Are we talking of anarchy? There is a method to the madness we have here in India.
On your side as much as our side, CBI may have been interfered with. But with media entering 24X7 our bedrooms, you think it is possible - to control CBI?
By talking of federalism, Jaitley wants to play "naarad muni" and appeal to some of our friends on our side. You are talking of assault on federalism. But this discussion on Lokayukta clause and Article 253 was discussed with everyone. Article 252 is a national interest provision - how can it be an assault on federalism?
Want to clarify for our friends on this side (reference to TMC). Govt has bent over backwards and has already amended the law to say clause on Lokayukta will only apply with consent to the states. 253 says Parliament shall have power to make law, to allow implementation of treaty, but also to implement a decision taken at an international conference.
We are both tee-totallers but your "constitutional cocktail" doesn't have any punch.
On reservation for members of Lokpal - we don't ask for reservation, we ask for representation.
We have the courage of our conviction. We have walked the extra mile. We are pioneers of social engineering. We are brave enough to think differently, bold enough to act differently because we believe we can change the world.
You are giving advance certificates of unconstitutionality. Your 50-year-old ideas of India I cannot change or help.
On Group C and D employees: They are under the Lokpal but covered by an appropriate mechanism (CVC). I cannot help it if our appropriate mechanism is not your appropriate mechanism. To simplify matters, there is not a sentence here in five lines of Pranab Mukherjee that suggests Citizen's Charter should or must be under the same Lokpal. Or that lower bureaucracy has to be directly under the Lokpal (reference to sense of the house resolution from August 27). When you went to Jantar Mantar (for Anna's debate), you wanted to hear the claps. So you never said a word opposing the Lokayuktas.
Just because a good idea is given by Congress General Secretary, it must be shot down - in reference to Rahul Gandhi's proposal to make Lokpal a constitutional body. In writing, you said there was no objection to this. Then here you say yes we want constitutional status but only if we take away Lokayukta part and if we give strong bill. Now you and I have different ideas of strong bill but what does constitutional status affect the Lokayukta part? You are trying to find excuses to oppose constitutional status. So you don't want that, and you don't want the Lokpal Bill to be passed. It is an excellent idea -constitutional status.
We are ready to stand up and be counted. Largest slew of anti-corruption measures is by this govt. We are neither scared nor defensive. There are people outside this House who do not have confidence in our institutions. They claim they are the voice of the people. It is easy to criticize and destroy. The art of seeing invisible things - extreme models do not work in practice, they work on paper. History will not forgive you if you play politics as you have on constitutional status and Lokayukta issue. We are not afraid of criticism. New models can be amended. You are in search of elusive perfect. It'll take you 30 seconds to pass this bill with minor technical changes. Or cat will be out of the bag and it is unseemly cat.

Dec 29, 2011 13:00 (IST)

Dec 29, 2011 11:54 (IST)

BJP's Arun Jaitley initiates debate. Highlights of his speech:

We don't want a weak and hollow law. We will oppose this with fervor. We are here today with the hope that the government's weak bill will be rejected by this House. But this House should also not leave today without delivering a strong law. So let us accept amendments suggested by other parties, if they make this law stronger. Let us show we can deliver an effective law. Parliament and politics both have great power and strength. We decide the laws of the country.
So what we pass today has to reflect whether our law collides with history, or makes history.
There is a sense of the House but there is also a sense of the nation. And the people are looking to us for a strong law. We are being tested - can we rise to the occasion?
Political funding in the world's biggest democracy- there are many doubts about this.
Legal architecture is strong. Our laws are strong. Investigative machinery and organizations are subject to government pressure. So the reforms needed are strong...can this be brought by a half-hearted legislation? And I regret to say this is a half-hearted legislation.
Who wants a weak law, and who wants a strong one will be judged by the public. And it will not forgive whoever lets it down. This is not a test for just government or you. This is a test of every section, every party here. Your (govt) allies - they are also being tested. Are they only willing to proclaim or are they willing to strike (for a tough law)?
Govt's politics was totally transparent. To create a smokescreen -that we are talking to civil society reps. You wanted to create a phony Lokpal and create a smokescreen that we are giving it constitutional status. You wanted to make it a toy and then say it's a constitutional authority. Country does not need this sort of Lokpal. This is what you described as a game-changer (dig at Rahul Gandhi). Game-changers are made with such phony institutions.
Ensure that you do not impede upon the rights of governments to form their own laws. Assure us that the autonomy of the states will be protected. Federalism and anti-corruption laws can co-exist.
Who will select the Lokpal - the government will have max clout. You have a long history of trying to control these institutions.
Three of the five people to select Lokpal will be chosen by the government. And who will remove the members of the Lokpal? As a citizen, I don't have the right to do this. I'll have to approach the government and then the government can approach the Supreme Court. So if Lokpal is biased in favour of government, the beneficiary of that bias will decide on the future of that Lokpal. You will appoint Lokpal and you will control the removal procedure. You are creating an institution where you control appointment and removal mechanism. Change this procedure immediately and we will support you.
In the work of the investigating agency (CBI), nobody can interfere - neither Lokpal nor government. Process of investigation is so complicated - somebody said on television it's like a "jalebi." Criminal investigations are not done by such a round-robin. Whoever created this mechanism is completely ignorant of how criminal investigations are done. Why are you creating an impossible mechanism? Even CBI says this is unworkable...Anna's colleagues say so...we are all saying it. But you have some sense of prestige that you want to create this mechanism because you have said so. This requires a serious change.
CBI - investigation functions have to be performed independently. Appointment of CBI Director should be done with arm's length. At least spare the CBI your predisposition for control. Like you have kept the right to suspend the Lokpal, at least don't keep the right to transfer officials who may be carrying out investigations you don't approve of.
Politicians have to be big-hearted. Your attempt to bring civil society groups, NGOs under Lokpal is a "revenge provision." These are not public servants. You want to use that Lokpal whose credibility is questionable to intrude into every aspect of life including temples, mosques, schools.
What you are creating is a government-controlled authority that will be so intrusive that it will enter every area of private life. Don't think for a second that other members of the House will support you on this. The officer against who the Lokpal orders an investigation must be given legal aid. Why must you shed crocodile tears?
Government has consciously brought a law which is constitutionally vulnerable.
My utmost respect for Pranab Mukherjee is not unknown. Fortunately for us he is not a lawyer so he can't argue on both sides (Pranab laughs)
(On clause on Lokayuktas): Please don't create an area where you are creating for the first time a precedent - a grey area where Centre may also have power, state can also have power. Portion on Lokayukta is based on incomplete reading of Constitution. Clause 81 gives Centre the power to prosecute and take action against state officials. Trinamool Congress is right - state government has right to frame law and to decide on action against state officials. Why are you creating constitutional havoc? You create a system where disciplinary action against officer of the state can take place via a central law? It can only take place on orders of state legislature. States won't be able to run their governments. You are asking states to surrender their rights to run state services. The authority to deal with state services can only be with the state.
Does UN Convention Against Corruption tell us what will be caste and religion of Lokayukta in the states? You are citing that convention. You have created a new constitution! This is for the first time I am seeing a new constitution being created. This government is trying to make a constitutional cocktail. Get a resolution from two states, frame a proper law, make it optional for those states that want it. Do it under Article 252 - we will agree to it immediately. You have mixed Article 252 and Article 253 - this is a constitutional cocktail.
Most of us conceptually and ideologically support affirmative action. You say reservation for Lokpal members will be "not less than 50%." But Supreme Court has cap of 50% for reservation. Your law is designed to have reservation for at least five out of nine members, so it's constitutionally unviable. It will not stand in court. All this is designed to make this law vulnerable to a constitutional challenge.
Why should Citizen's Charter not be part of this? You agreed to this in Sense of House on August 27. For Lokayukta too, we have to do this in correct manner. We cannot encroach upon right of states and then say state has the power to reject a central law.
Institution-building is a very challenging task. This will be primary integrity institution in this country. Are we going to subvert it even before it is formed? You want to kill the Lokpal while it is still in the womb. You want to create a subservient Lokpal. You want to make it a rudderless institution. If we create bad history, we will force next generations to correct our mistakes. We are here the whole day to pass a Lokpal Bill but not your Lokpal Bill.

Dec 29, 2011 11:40 (IST)

Hamid Ansari asks Jaitley to initiate Debate. Opposition asks where is PM (he is attending Congress core group meeting). Opposition asks for PM to be called immediately. Ansari says House has been informed he is on his way. House is adjourned for 10 minutes.

Dec 29, 2011 11:19 (IST)

V Narayanasamy tables Lokpal Bill in Rajya Sabha.

Highlights of his speech:

For 40 years, discussions on Lokpal Bill have been held for a bill to help citizens who have many complaints
In April 2011, civil society organizations said Lokpal Bill should come as soon as possible
So government tried new experiment - to get views of civil society like Anna Hazare and others. So Finance Minister and others worked with them on Lokpal Bill. Both sides deliberated on it.
About six meetings they attended. One meeting they (activists) boycotted
Lokpal will have chairperson and eight members
This bill has not been brought all of a sudden. Many deliberations were held. Two meetings with political parties. They were taken into confidence.
There was lot of demand for reservation for SC/ST, women, minorities.
Therefore it has been incorporated in bill.
Selection committee for Lokpal has five members. 50% reservation here also.
On issue of PM: He represents 120 crores' population, he is face of our country when he goes abroad. So we thought PM should not be brought under ambit of Lokpal. But unfortunately, there was demand for this from some circles. PM also said he should be brought under ambit of Lokpal. So he is covered with five exclusions for matters like national security, atomic energy and space.
Complaints against PM were to be sanctioned by ¾ majority of Lokpal, but now it has been changed to 2/3 majority. (Seen sipping water)
Legislation-making process of Parliament: This issue has been debated and deliberated. This is the Sense of the House. That Lokayukta be included in the bill.
Credit for Lokpal Bill goes to UPA

Lokpal Bill debate in Rajya Sabha

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