Davos:
Technology giant Google has finally spoken out on the controversy over objectionable content posted on its website and the legal battle it has led to. Speaking exclusively to NDTV, Google's Chief Business Officer Nikesh Arora said it was not possible for the company to monitor everything on its website.
Here's the full transcript:
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: Interesting and challenging times for technology giants over issues like privacy and censorship. It is a pleasure to have with us at the NDTV Davos studio, Nikesh Arora, the Chief Business Officer and Senior Vice President of Google. Many thanks Nikesh for being with us here.
Nikesh Arora: Thank you for having me.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: Google is in the midst of a legal tussle in India, over the issue of banning objectionable content. I know the matter is sub judice but just to broadly understand the issue, do you think that the demands being made by the Indian government are unreasonable?
Nikesh Arora:Well, first of all you have to understand that this is not about Google. This is about, it's about the freedom of expression. It is about, it is about anybody in the country wanting to express themselves on any technology medium, whether it's Google, whether it is the NDTV site, whether it is wherever, I think one has to be very careful as you evaluate this issue. I think you need to understand what the issue is and solve that particular problem. The issue is that when you think you have a hammer in your hand. everything looks like a nail.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: But the argument that the government is making is that there is some very serious objectionable stuff on the net. And that's something, we need a mechanism to work this out.
Nikesh Arora: Yeah, but it is like, there are some seriously bad elements in society, doesn't mean that every one of our houses needs to be searched every morning. You are saying that one needs to look at every bit of content and decide what's right and what's wrong and if this is an interesting concept. Who is going to decide? I don't feel qualified to decide, as a part of Google, what is okay and what is not okay on every piece of content, whether it's going to be okay or not okay. I don't think you guys can decide if every piece of comment on the NDTV site is okay or not okay. I mean there are laws all about this all over the world, about this stuff. And this is a very fundamental issue, that if you identify something as objectionable, people who have it should take it down as quickly as possible. It's done in the US and that's how it's done in many other parts of the world, and it seems to work.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: But at the end of the day, you are the ones who are carrying that content, and so the government can only approach you and say that hey, we have a problem with this. Can you have this removed, and the government has made several such requests, more than 300 requests in the last one year, that please do remove the objectionable content. Is that something which is again fair, because the government is saying it's in the interest of the public harmony? It is something that needs to be done to ensure that you are not inciting communal elements.
Nikesh Arora: I think Shweta this is an extremely complicated topic. It has to be understood really well. I don't think the challenge is taking things down. I think one has to clearly understand what is objectionable, one has to be given due notice to take it down. And that's the process one should follow. I think the idea of censoring everything and pre-clearing everything is going to fundamentally, sort of, taint the growth of the Indian economy in India and vis-a-vis the world. I think, do we want to be a part of that country where suddenly things are not working as fast? People are not in a way, we are not seeing entrepreneurs because everything has to be checked before? You know, part of, part of my seven years at Google, I used to be very proud every time I came to India. You know, I said India is not like many other countries on the world. We have a fundamental belief around democracy, we have a fundamental belief around freedom of expression. I think we need to keep that.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: Are you disappointed at what has happened over the last few months?
Nikesh Arora: Yeah, I think I take a long term view on this. I think there are a lot of people in the country who believe this is, freedom of expression is important. A lot of people feel passionately about making sure we don't go in the wrong direction. So I'm hoping there will be a balanced debate around it and eventually the right thing would happen.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: At the same time you are an Indian Nikesh, you do understand the sensitivities the government is talking about? You represent a very very important position at Google. Have you been engaging with the Indian policy-makers trying to sort of at least balance out the two views?
Nikesh Arora: We have been engaging. I think the debate is on. I think some of the things are done a bit too hastily for our liking. And we will like to have real conversation around some of these issues, and we feel some engagement has happened, but we prefer more dialogue before people rush to take action on, what I believe is, not a fully formed idea.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: At the same time, the impression within the government circles was that, there was, that the social networking sites or the search engines turned around and said, sorry we cannot help you, this cannot be allowed. So that sort of kind of led to the tussle that we saw in between the government and the technology giants.
Nikesh Arora: But I think you know there are so many things we can talk about, I know what you are saying. I don't think there is one part of the government. You know the government has many parts. People have different opinions around it. I think what we are trying to explain is the enormity of what is being asked. You are asking not just to censor the web in India, you are asking to censor the entire world wide web. The web has no borders. So today if we take something down in India, so tomorrow you can say, well it is still available to the people in the United States. So you see, one cannot censor the web. One cannot censor the ability for people to express themselves around the world. If something is objectionable, there is due process in the law which allows you to do that. Just because a technology platform exists that allows you to be able to see what's going on, doesn't mean that the platform should be held liable for what's going on. You know part of our job is to create discovery of content. Part of various social networking platforms' job is allow a technology platform, people to converse. Now, it is almost like saying you know I built the street corner. So the guy who built the street corner is now liable for everybody who stands at the street corner to have a conversation. How ridiculous is that?
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: Right, but that was an interesting analogy that the Court had brought out, saying that suppose you are a landlord and you have a tenant. And the tenant is doing something wrong or doing something right. You are actually benefitting out of it. You cannot suddenly wash your hands of it. How would you respond to something like that?
Nikesh Arora: But that's a very simplistic model. I mean the web, does not have one tenant. The web is, I mean, we are not responsible what you doing your side. You are a tenant your side. You are responsible to take down the objectionable content. If somebody asks you to, I can't be held responsible when people come to Google and go to multiple sites from there and say, oh you have to take this out because you sent it there. So look, there is a whole set of issues around it. I understand the principle they are trying to achieve. I think it's fine, but I think the remedy is not the remedy that is going to end in a positive result. I think it fundamentally risks the stunting of the growth of the Indian economy, not just economy, it is stunting the growth of the economy in the country. I think people need to be aware of that, and people need to be cognizant of that, before they take any steps in that direction.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: Nikesh, it is true that the policy makers in India do understand the importance of freedom of expression. At the same time they are not saying we want to go the China way. Although there was sort of a warning issued by the Court, but the policy-makers are very clear. They are saying: no we are not talking about web censorship, we don't want to go the China way, at the same time it is just a request about some objectionable content. Is there a middle ground?
Nikesh Arora: What is objectionable content?
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: It is something government has alerted you, requested you to remove. Is there a middle ground, that's what I'm asking?
Nikesh Arora: There is a lot of interpretation required and we don't feel comfortable being the final arbiter on what is objectionable or not? If somebody identifies what's objectionable and tells ...
Shweta Rajpal Kohli:... What about the government, they are identifying for you ..
Nikesh Arora:Oh they have to look at and say that's what I don't like, we'll take it down. You can't say I don't like anybody talking about ..
Shweta Rajpal Kohli:.. So that is possible.
Nikesh Arora: Yeah if you find something objectionable, notify us, we'll take it down. That's not a problem.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: Right, then what's the debate about?
Nikesh Arora: Oh the debate is, we are expected to read everything before you do. You realise it's 63 hours of video.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: So you are saying you can't self-censor?
Nikesh Arora: We can't. There is 60 hours of video uploaded every minute on the web. What do you want to do? There's like, a billion transactions that have happened every hour on social networking sites. Who is going to actually read through all of them in advance to make sure that nothing is objectionable that stays there. So I think there are ways where self-policing groups, there are social groups that will tell you that they don't like something, we'll take a look at it. If it is bad we'll take it down. You know people tell us it's objectionable, we'll take it out. It's impossible to do it prior to the fact.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: All right Nikesh we are certainly hoping that there will be some sort of a resolution of that very, very controversial debate that's taking place, and of course has turned into a mega bitter legal dispute. But moving on from there and talking about censorship and privacy and such, Google privacy. And certain changes that you are telling us to make, is again something that led to a huge controversy, where there is talk that people are not very comfortable, that Google will be using personal information for revenue generation.
Nikesh Arora: Well I think there are multiple aspects to the conversation. First of all, what we have done recently is, we have 60 different privacy policies. As we have grown as a company in the last 12 years, we had multiple products and we have had multiple privacy policies as new products came out.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: Right.
Nikesh Arora: And it's extremely hard for users to understand 60 of them and interpret them and see what's going to happen. So fundamentally we did, first was we made sure we simplified it, and there is one policy, now you can see everything we do and it's right there. So it's a very good thing. I think simplifying is always a good thing. It's in the interest of the users and it's very clear, next fiscal, what benefits it has. Look, at the end of the day the user strikes the balance between what is convenience, what versus what they are going to share. If I use my credit cards, somebody knows what I ate, what I drank, what I bought.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: But you don't have the option of opting out in such a case, because you are going to use your personal information that I have on Google.
Nikesh Arora: Of course, you have the option of not using the service, that's perfectly fine.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: So I am going to use parts of your service, so you are saying, if I use gmail, you will access my personal information?
Nikesh Arora: But you are saying, I want to walk into a store, I want to buy something, but I don't want to give him my credit card details and I don't have cash.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: So I should have that option. No, no, I am not saying that.
Nikesh Arora: You just did. You want to use services without actually giving us anything ...
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: It's not the same.
Nikesh Arora: But you can. Look you can do a search on Google without logging in and you get results.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: Okay.
Nikesh Arora: You can do that. We are not asking you to. Now if you are in Davos you are doing a search of restaurants. I can make it a lot more convenient by knowing where you are, and telling there are 5 within a one mile radius from you, otherwise you will be looking for restaurants and trying to enter where you are. So you have the option of sharing that piece of information, at that instant, and getting a better answer, or you have the option of letting us know that if you have data, we should be able to use it. That's your choice.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: Alright Nikesh, it's a very interesting debate, it's a complicated debate, it is something that has no easy answers. But thanks so much for sharing some of your views and wish you a very Happy Republic Day, because you have got Google celebrating it too.
Nikesh Arora: Indeed. Happy Republic Day to you and all the people watching.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: Tell us quickly about Google doodle and how Google is celebrating India's Republic Day?
Nikesh Arora: Look, as always we try and find relevant days for people around the world, the world in various times and we try and keep ourselves live and fresh at Google. We try and respect, support various things that are happening around the world. So the doodle is dedicated to the wonderful events in the country.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: And here's to a happier relationship between India and Google as well.
Nikesh Arora: Oh I am sure there will be a happier relationship. I am hopeful. I am very, very optimistic. So I think the right thing will happen in the end.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: Nikesh many, many thanks for being with us here at the NDTV studio.
Nikesh Arora:Thank you
Here's the full transcript:
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: Interesting and challenging times for technology giants over issues like privacy and censorship. It is a pleasure to have with us at the NDTV Davos studio, Nikesh Arora, the Chief Business Officer and Senior Vice President of Google. Many thanks Nikesh for being with us here.
Nikesh Arora: Thank you for having me.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: Google is in the midst of a legal tussle in India, over the issue of banning objectionable content. I know the matter is sub judice but just to broadly understand the issue, do you think that the demands being made by the Indian government are unreasonable?
Nikesh Arora:Well, first of all you have to understand that this is not about Google. This is about, it's about the freedom of expression. It is about, it is about anybody in the country wanting to express themselves on any technology medium, whether it's Google, whether it is the NDTV site, whether it is wherever, I think one has to be very careful as you evaluate this issue. I think you need to understand what the issue is and solve that particular problem. The issue is that when you think you have a hammer in your hand. everything looks like a nail.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: But the argument that the government is making is that there is some very serious objectionable stuff on the net. And that's something, we need a mechanism to work this out.
Nikesh Arora: Yeah, but it is like, there are some seriously bad elements in society, doesn't mean that every one of our houses needs to be searched every morning. You are saying that one needs to look at every bit of content and decide what's right and what's wrong and if this is an interesting concept. Who is going to decide? I don't feel qualified to decide, as a part of Google, what is okay and what is not okay on every piece of content, whether it's going to be okay or not okay. I don't think you guys can decide if every piece of comment on the NDTV site is okay or not okay. I mean there are laws all about this all over the world, about this stuff. And this is a very fundamental issue, that if you identify something as objectionable, people who have it should take it down as quickly as possible. It's done in the US and that's how it's done in many other parts of the world, and it seems to work.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: But at the end of the day, you are the ones who are carrying that content, and so the government can only approach you and say that hey, we have a problem with this. Can you have this removed, and the government has made several such requests, more than 300 requests in the last one year, that please do remove the objectionable content. Is that something which is again fair, because the government is saying it's in the interest of the public harmony? It is something that needs to be done to ensure that you are not inciting communal elements.
Nikesh Arora: I think Shweta this is an extremely complicated topic. It has to be understood really well. I don't think the challenge is taking things down. I think one has to clearly understand what is objectionable, one has to be given due notice to take it down. And that's the process one should follow. I think the idea of censoring everything and pre-clearing everything is going to fundamentally, sort of, taint the growth of the Indian economy in India and vis-a-vis the world. I think, do we want to be a part of that country where suddenly things are not working as fast? People are not in a way, we are not seeing entrepreneurs because everything has to be checked before? You know, part of, part of my seven years at Google, I used to be very proud every time I came to India. You know, I said India is not like many other countries on the world. We have a fundamental belief around democracy, we have a fundamental belief around freedom of expression. I think we need to keep that.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: Are you disappointed at what has happened over the last few months?
Nikesh Arora: Yeah, I think I take a long term view on this. I think there are a lot of people in the country who believe this is, freedom of expression is important. A lot of people feel passionately about making sure we don't go in the wrong direction. So I'm hoping there will be a balanced debate around it and eventually the right thing would happen.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: At the same time you are an Indian Nikesh, you do understand the sensitivities the government is talking about? You represent a very very important position at Google. Have you been engaging with the Indian policy-makers trying to sort of at least balance out the two views?
Nikesh Arora: We have been engaging. I think the debate is on. I think some of the things are done a bit too hastily for our liking. And we will like to have real conversation around some of these issues, and we feel some engagement has happened, but we prefer more dialogue before people rush to take action on, what I believe is, not a fully formed idea.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: At the same time, the impression within the government circles was that, there was, that the social networking sites or the search engines turned around and said, sorry we cannot help you, this cannot be allowed. So that sort of kind of led to the tussle that we saw in between the government and the technology giants.
Nikesh Arora: But I think you know there are so many things we can talk about, I know what you are saying. I don't think there is one part of the government. You know the government has many parts. People have different opinions around it. I think what we are trying to explain is the enormity of what is being asked. You are asking not just to censor the web in India, you are asking to censor the entire world wide web. The web has no borders. So today if we take something down in India, so tomorrow you can say, well it is still available to the people in the United States. So you see, one cannot censor the web. One cannot censor the ability for people to express themselves around the world. If something is objectionable, there is due process in the law which allows you to do that. Just because a technology platform exists that allows you to be able to see what's going on, doesn't mean that the platform should be held liable for what's going on. You know part of our job is to create discovery of content. Part of various social networking platforms' job is allow a technology platform, people to converse. Now, it is almost like saying you know I built the street corner. So the guy who built the street corner is now liable for everybody who stands at the street corner to have a conversation. How ridiculous is that?
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: Right, but that was an interesting analogy that the Court had brought out, saying that suppose you are a landlord and you have a tenant. And the tenant is doing something wrong or doing something right. You are actually benefitting out of it. You cannot suddenly wash your hands of it. How would you respond to something like that?
Nikesh Arora: But that's a very simplistic model. I mean the web, does not have one tenant. The web is, I mean, we are not responsible what you doing your side. You are a tenant your side. You are responsible to take down the objectionable content. If somebody asks you to, I can't be held responsible when people come to Google and go to multiple sites from there and say, oh you have to take this out because you sent it there. So look, there is a whole set of issues around it. I understand the principle they are trying to achieve. I think it's fine, but I think the remedy is not the remedy that is going to end in a positive result. I think it fundamentally risks the stunting of the growth of the Indian economy, not just economy, it is stunting the growth of the economy in the country. I think people need to be aware of that, and people need to be cognizant of that, before they take any steps in that direction.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: Nikesh, it is true that the policy makers in India do understand the importance of freedom of expression. At the same time they are not saying we want to go the China way. Although there was sort of a warning issued by the Court, but the policy-makers are very clear. They are saying: no we are not talking about web censorship, we don't want to go the China way, at the same time it is just a request about some objectionable content. Is there a middle ground?
Nikesh Arora: What is objectionable content?
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: It is something government has alerted you, requested you to remove. Is there a middle ground, that's what I'm asking?
Nikesh Arora: There is a lot of interpretation required and we don't feel comfortable being the final arbiter on what is objectionable or not? If somebody identifies what's objectionable and tells ...
Shweta Rajpal Kohli:... What about the government, they are identifying for you ..
Nikesh Arora:Oh they have to look at and say that's what I don't like, we'll take it down. You can't say I don't like anybody talking about ..
Shweta Rajpal Kohli:.. So that is possible.
Nikesh Arora: Yeah if you find something objectionable, notify us, we'll take it down. That's not a problem.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: Right, then what's the debate about?
Nikesh Arora: Oh the debate is, we are expected to read everything before you do. You realise it's 63 hours of video.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: So you are saying you can't self-censor?
Nikesh Arora: We can't. There is 60 hours of video uploaded every minute on the web. What do you want to do? There's like, a billion transactions that have happened every hour on social networking sites. Who is going to actually read through all of them in advance to make sure that nothing is objectionable that stays there. So I think there are ways where self-policing groups, there are social groups that will tell you that they don't like something, we'll take a look at it. If it is bad we'll take it down. You know people tell us it's objectionable, we'll take it out. It's impossible to do it prior to the fact.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: All right Nikesh we are certainly hoping that there will be some sort of a resolution of that very, very controversial debate that's taking place, and of course has turned into a mega bitter legal dispute. But moving on from there and talking about censorship and privacy and such, Google privacy. And certain changes that you are telling us to make, is again something that led to a huge controversy, where there is talk that people are not very comfortable, that Google will be using personal information for revenue generation.
Nikesh Arora: Well I think there are multiple aspects to the conversation. First of all, what we have done recently is, we have 60 different privacy policies. As we have grown as a company in the last 12 years, we had multiple products and we have had multiple privacy policies as new products came out.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: Right.
Nikesh Arora: And it's extremely hard for users to understand 60 of them and interpret them and see what's going to happen. So fundamentally we did, first was we made sure we simplified it, and there is one policy, now you can see everything we do and it's right there. So it's a very good thing. I think simplifying is always a good thing. It's in the interest of the users and it's very clear, next fiscal, what benefits it has. Look, at the end of the day the user strikes the balance between what is convenience, what versus what they are going to share. If I use my credit cards, somebody knows what I ate, what I drank, what I bought.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: But you don't have the option of opting out in such a case, because you are going to use your personal information that I have on Google.
Nikesh Arora: Of course, you have the option of not using the service, that's perfectly fine.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: So I am going to use parts of your service, so you are saying, if I use gmail, you will access my personal information?
Nikesh Arora: But you are saying, I want to walk into a store, I want to buy something, but I don't want to give him my credit card details and I don't have cash.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: So I should have that option. No, no, I am not saying that.
Nikesh Arora: You just did. You want to use services without actually giving us anything ...
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: It's not the same.
Nikesh Arora: But you can. Look you can do a search on Google without logging in and you get results.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: Okay.
Nikesh Arora: You can do that. We are not asking you to. Now if you are in Davos you are doing a search of restaurants. I can make it a lot more convenient by knowing where you are, and telling there are 5 within a one mile radius from you, otherwise you will be looking for restaurants and trying to enter where you are. So you have the option of sharing that piece of information, at that instant, and getting a better answer, or you have the option of letting us know that if you have data, we should be able to use it. That's your choice.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: Alright Nikesh, it's a very interesting debate, it's a complicated debate, it is something that has no easy answers. But thanks so much for sharing some of your views and wish you a very Happy Republic Day, because you have got Google celebrating it too.
Nikesh Arora: Indeed. Happy Republic Day to you and all the people watching.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: Tell us quickly about Google doodle and how Google is celebrating India's Republic Day?
Nikesh Arora: Look, as always we try and find relevant days for people around the world, the world in various times and we try and keep ourselves live and fresh at Google. We try and respect, support various things that are happening around the world. So the doodle is dedicated to the wonderful events in the country.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: And here's to a happier relationship between India and Google as well.
Nikesh Arora: Oh I am sure there will be a happier relationship. I am hopeful. I am very, very optimistic. So I think the right thing will happen in the end.
Shweta Rajpal Kohli: Nikesh many, many thanks for being with us here at the NDTV studio.
Nikesh Arora:Thank you
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